The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Newcomers → Helmets required for pit stops?
What are the rules for pit stops, specifically regarding helmets? We have a couple guys who are interested in acting as crew members during the race, but they don't have helmets.
Can they check fluid levels, lugnut torques, or whatever without a helmet during a pit stop? Or does anyone "over the wall" need to have a helmet on?
Over the wall means helmet and firesuit.
There are other rules about not doing other work while over the wall - only fuel and driver changes.
It varies a bit by event, but generally the ONLY over the wall work allowed is fuel + driver change. All other work must be done in the paddock. Paddock work can be done by any CREW member or DRIVER with a wristband. Spectators cannot help if they don't have wristbands. Nothing special is needed to work in the paddock. Over the wall fuel duties, however, must be done with full safety gear, so your buddies cannot help there.
Over the wall means helmet and firesuit.
There are other rules about not doing other work while over the wall - only fuel and driver changes.
Are the rules you speak of track rules or Lemons rules?
If they are Lemons rules, why aren't they published? So far I have encountered several rules that aren't in the "Prices & Rules"
I'm glad Lemons has this active forum and I'm learning all this before I show up at the race, but it's pretty frustrating to have a rulebook that doesn't include all the rules. If I just read the rules and showed up at a race I wouldn't make it through tech, instead I would get a "Yeah, that's one of our rules, didn't you know?" Well no, I didn't, you don't have that rule written down anywhere. /rant
Lemons rules for the fueling attire. Not sure why it's not in the rules.
Each track has it own pit fueling locations. Some are in the hot pit, some in a specific area in the paddock.
Email Nick if you need more info.
If possible, you should go to a race so you can see how the shebang is. Ask questions and observe. You'll have a good time.
RobL wrote:Over the wall means helmet and firesuit.
There are other rules about not doing other work while over the wall - only fuel and driver changes.
Are the rules you speak of track rules or Lemons rules?
If they are Lemons rules, why aren't they published? So far I have encountered several rules that aren't in the "Prices & Rules"
I'm glad Lemons has this active forum and I'm learning all this before I show up at the race, but it's pretty frustrating to have a rulebook that doesn't include all the rules. If I just read the rules and showed up at a race I wouldn't make it through tech, instead I would get a "Yeah, that's one of our rules, didn't you know?" Well no, I didn't, you don't have that rule written down anywhere. /rant
I'm a competitor like you - don't ask me why the rules aren't published...
If you prep the car to the posted rules, you will pass tech. Please point to a non-published rule that would prevent you from passing tech.
These other rules are track specific and are more procedural. Some aren't determined until Jay actually gets to the track and can see the layout himself - those are discussed in the drivers meeting. In racing terms - these are called "supplemental rules." These are worked out between Jay and the track. Things like refueling areas, procedures in the hot pits (if there are even any hot pits on track), fireworks in the bathroom, etc. The rules will always be the most prohibitive between: the track, Jay, and any insurance company that may have to pay should your sorry ass be hurt.
As a side note - if you are the kind of person that likes to have more rigid structure vs. a more flowing attitide, Lemons may not be as much fun as it could be for you.
... Please point to a non-published rule that would prevent you from passing tech.
...
Are battery boxes required for in-car mounted batteries?
The Lemons HQ reply to my email, cut and pasted verbatim:
"Though we don't have anything in our rules for passenger-compartment
battery mountings, we do require battery boxes for those applications.
We have been meaning to officially add it to the rules..."
I remember reading about them somwhere on the website. I'll poke around and maybe I'll get lucky.
Posted on the Capitol Offense page:
FUEL RULES: MINIMUM 2-HOUR PENALTY FOR ANY INFRACTION!
Fueling allowed in designated Fuel Area (Fuel Pumps) and your paddock space
Fuel Area will be defined at the Driver's Meeting (ie, please don't bug us before then)
Two people minimum, one holding extinguisher while fueling from jugs (applies to your paddock space too) Place a pan under the car to catch spills.
All people in Fuel Area must wear the same safety gear as a driver when fueling from jugs or cans
Engine and kill switch must be OFF during fueling
NO ONE ALLOWED IN THE CAR DURING FUELING
A NEW DRIVER CAN GO INTO THE CAR AFTER FUELING
ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER WORK ALLOWED IN THE FUEL PUMP AREA (no tire checks, no fluid checks, etc.)
You May pump fuel from the pumps without Nomex - just like the gas station...
I'm sure there are similar rules for other races.
RobL wrote:... Please point to a non-published rule that would prevent you from passing tech.
...Are battery boxes required for in-car mounted batteries?
The Lemons HQ reply to my email, cut and pasted verbatim:
"Though we don't have anything in our rules for passenger-compartment
battery mountings, we do require battery boxes for those applications.
We have been meaning to officially add it to the rules..."
That's fine - I'm corrected. But doesn't that rule make sense? I'm sure there are a lot of other common sense rules that didn't make it onto that page.
That's fine - I'm corrected. But doesn't that rule make sense? I'm sure there are a lot of other common sense rules that didn't make it onto that page.
And Lemons is a bastion of common sense, lol.
I agree with the common sense, but even at (what I like to think is) a young age I've been around to know that common sense isn't always common to everyone. If it's a rule, it should be in the rulebook.
You alluded to the fact that maybe all rules aren't written down in Lemons because of its "flowing attitude" - I see this as exactly why rules should be written down. The whole concept of Lemons is that at long as you can keep it under $500, anything goes. So with the whole "anything goes" attitude, it's that much more important to specify the few rules that do need to be followed.
These other rules are track specific and are more procedural. Some aren't determined until Jay actually gets to the track and can see the layout himself - those are discussed in the drivers meeting. In racing terms - these are called "supplemental rules." These are worked out between Jay and the track.
I've been to CMP four times and the re-fueling rules are different every time. You'd think there could be "supplemental rules" posted for that track by now.
Thanks for the info, Sir Thomas. So it sounds like it's decided jointly between track, Lemons, and insurance, and may not be fully decided until race weekend. While it may not be the EXACT same as what you posted for Capitol Offense, it will likely be pretty close to the same at Gingerman. Got it.
RobL wrote:That's fine - I'm corrected. But doesn't that rule make sense? I'm sure there are a lot of other common sense rules that didn't make it onto that page.
And Lemons is a bastion of common sense, lol.
More than you know. I'd say that 75% of the people there have or had racing licenses of one sort or other. Usually at least one person on the team has an active license.
I agree with the common sense, but even at (what I like to think is) a young age I've been around to know that common sense isn't always common to everyone. If it's a rule, it should be in the rulebook.
You alluded to the fact that maybe all rules aren't written down in Lemons because of its "flowing attitude" - I see this as exactly why rules should be written down.
Given what I said above - All but a few teams know what is considered safe in a racing environment. Those teams that need help will get it at the track from those more experienced teams. If everything needs to be written down, then you end up with a rulebook that is the size of the SCCAs - which is exactly what the organizers are trying to avoid.
The whole concept of Lemons is that at long as you can keep it under $500, anything goes. So with the whole "anything goes" attitude, it's that much more important to specify the few rules that do need to be followed.
It's specifically due to the "anything goes" attitude that you can't come up with specific rules to cover everything. How do you set up rules that specify that you can't have huge reverse helicopter blades running on top of your car... You have to trust common sense at some point - the organizers have chosen to move that point closer to the competitor than to a rulebook.
The fueling rules cited above for Capital Offense were pretty much the same rules at Infineon Sears Pointless earlier this year. It seems at this point that the biggest difference track-to-track (event-to-event?) is determined by the answer to the question of where the fueling is to be done. The answer is either (a) only in your paddock space or (b) only in a designated area but definitely NOT in your paddock space.
Usually, if you fuel in your paddock, then you can work on the car after you fuel. If you fuel in a place not your paddock, then you can't work on the car after you fuel UNLESS you move the car to your paddock spot.
These are just my general observations from about a half-dozen races over the last year. YMMV. I agree that it is is frustrating to try to plan for hitting a moving target, but although the target is moving, it's moving in a very limited range. Don't let it stress you out, this is all about having fun in a motorsports-based way. Cheers.
Every event seems to be a little different. Just relax!
One thing I don't understand is why we can't change drivers during fueling at Lemons races. The driver is in his suit! A head scratcher. But generally the rules are logical.
Every event seems to be a little different. Just relax!
One thing I don't understand is why we can't change drivers during fueling at Lemons races. The driver is in his suit! A head scratcher. But generally the rules are logical.
FWIW, it's not the fueling rules that frustrated me, I was just asking. I AM however frustrated at times by "rules" I discover surfing the forums, not in the rulebook.
It's the same for many professional endurance racing series, and I've never quite understood it there, either. Not sure how the act of a driver entering/exiting the car makes the fueling process more dangerous or likely to go wrong.
Oh, one can get out. One just can't get back in. There is no explanation.
Being in a burning car sucks. It's about limiting that risk.
FWIW, it's not the fueling rules that frustrated me, I was just asking. I AM however frustrated at times by "rules" I discover surfing the forums, not in the rulebook.
Ditto. I don't care what the rules are as long as someone will tell me (in writing) before the event. Finding out you need X,Y,Z at the drivers meeting is not cool IMO.
FYI, these kind of statements will get you labeled as a whiner, which is an added bonus.
The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Newcomers → Helmets required for pit stops?