Topic: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

Well I'm at a loss. Our car, a cherry '94 Nissan Sentra XE, which was purchased fully functional is now less so. Taking the advice of several tuner forums, I took a functional brake system and upgraded to SS lines, front calipers and rotors from an NX2000. The lines where flushed and bled and it seemed we had good pedal pressure. It being late, we left the test drive for the next day. What we found the next morning was a pedal that went to the floor. We bled things again without any improvement. So we replaced the master cylinder off a parts car, along with a brake booster from the same car. No luck. And we just can't get any improvement.
Now, it was really late the first time we bled things, so I wouldn't swear that we had a firm pedal. I'm starting to wonder if this system won't handle the larger calipers? Maybe we need a larger master cylinder? Maybe I'm overlooking something else?

Appreciate any suggestions, because I'm thinking I may have to just burn the car and find another lemon.

Emily's Power for a Cure 1990 Mazda Miata (I Got Screwed 2014 Southern Discomfort)
Help in the fight against Neuroblastoma, a devastating childhood cancer.
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Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

Did you mount the calipers with the bleeders pointing down? Had this happen to a friend that did a brake upgrade and got the left and right calipers switched..

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

Any puddles of brake fluid under the car?  Did the rod fall out of the master cylinder?  The brake pedal still connected properly?

When in doubt start with the basics.

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Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

I'll double check, but the calipers where marked L and R, and I mounted them accordingly. No puddles, no fluid loss at all. I'll have to look at the master cylinder again check for rods missing.

Emily's Power for a Cure 1990 Mazda Miata (I Got Screwed 2014 Southern Discomfort)
Help in the fight against Neuroblastoma, a devastating childhood cancer.
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Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

You need a larger master cylinder.

We went to 4 wheel discs on the Karmann Ghia before the last race. The day before leaving for Louisiana, we took the car to MSRH for some testing, and realized that we had no pedal. It was firm for about the inch before it hit the firewall. Changing from a 19mm to a 21mm master cylinder changed everything. We managed to do that Friday at the track, and had great breaks all weekend. It made a much bigger difference than I thought.

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

You need to match the bore size of the master cylinders.

94 Sentras had several master cylinder bore options: 3/4, 13/16 or 7/8.

The NX2000 probably uses a 7/8" bore and you may only have a 3/4."

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

Even if the MC is slightly smaller than you need, this will not cause the problem you are experiencing.  It might not give you enough volume to work properly, but it will not cause a completely dead pedal.  It sounds to me like you have air in the MC.  Did you bench bleed the MC before bleeding the calipers?  If the MC has bleed ports, attach a 6" long hose from the bleed port and insert the other end in the reservoir under the fluid level.  Slightly crack the bleeder just enough for fluid flow and SLOWLY pump the pedal until the bubbles stop coming out of the hose.  Tighten the bleeder while the hose is still submerged and repeat the process for the other bleeder.  Now rebleed the corners in the following order:  RR, LR, RF, LF.  You should be back in business.

You might still have the wrong MC size for optimal system function, but I'm almost positive air in the system is your current problem.  A slightly undersized MC bore will make the pedal stroke feel long since you have to push farther to get the same amount of fluid to the corners.  It will feel lighter as well.  It might work perfectly fine other than the long pedal feel and is sometimes actually easier to modulate without locking up.

BRE Datsun (Broke Racing Effluence) formerly Dawn of the Zed Racing
'74 260Z
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8 (edited by Crazybob 2010-05-08 06:53 PM)

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

Well, we bleed the system three different ways. We had a system that used an electric pump that attaches on the reservoir and forces fluid from the pump into the system. We used a vacuum pump at each of the four corners while periodically topping off the reservoir. And we did the old pump the pedal and open the bleeder thing.
I guess I'll try bleeding the MC again.

And thanks for all the suggestions. You guys rock! I was seriously contemplating a large car fire smile

Emily's Power for a Cure 1990 Mazda Miata (I Got Screwed 2014 Southern Discomfort)
Help in the fight against Neuroblastoma, a devastating childhood cancer.
http://emilyspowerforacure.com/

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

Is it an abs car perchance? I had trouble with a b13 se-r with the abs doing the same thing. Took a few tries and a bad master I think was the problem

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1989 Daihatsu Charade

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

Non-abs car, it's such a simple system it ought to be easy to solve but I guess the fail is strong with us.

Emily's Power for a Cure 1990 Mazda Miata (I Got Screwed 2014 Southern Discomfort)
Help in the fight against Neuroblastoma, a devastating childhood cancer.
http://emilyspowerforacure.com/

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

Did you get the rotors for Nissan NX2000 2.0 liter Made in Japan 10.125" (257mm).

rotors wrote:

BENDIX 141794
RAYBESTOS 96280
DELCO/DURASTOP 18A517
NAPA 4886280

In any case I am guessing that is not the problem.  If you are goin got replace the Master Cylinder go with a larger one from a 90's Altima.

Drive more, type less.

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

Autozone has Fenco NM52650 or Advance has a Cardone 11-2650, both of 93 Altima w/o ABS. But they don't come with reservoirs, will the old one fit that?

Emily's Power for a Cure 1990 Mazda Miata (I Got Screwed 2014 Southern Discomfort)
Help in the fight against Neuroblastoma, a devastating childhood cancer.
http://emilyspowerforacure.com/

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

Dunno if it will help you, but i've got an S14 bmc I don't need.  I think its 7/8".

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

We did the same brake upgrade on our sentra with no problems.  It could use a little more master cylinder, but the brakes are so much better than stock.  I think the MC upgrade to do is from a Maxima.  We didn't need it though.  We did have to bleed the crap out of the brakes.  I think you just need to bleed more.  I've never had much luck with the bleeder pumps.  Just keep doing the pump it up and crack a line technique.  Make sure you check all the lines and connections for leaks

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

Modern systems have a pressure differential valve typically. That means that if you push down hard on the pedal, if it senses no even pressure split between front/rear, it will block off the rear with a little shuttle valve and divert all pressure to the front (or vice-versa). My best advice is to use a very low pressure eezi-bled (like 20psi pushing in the master) and open 1 front and 1 rear nipple-- or have 1 person sitting in the car and 1 person on a front nipple, 1 person on a rear nipple and go like so:

Person at pedal says "Open" and people at nipples open bleeders and when open repeat back "open". Person at pedal pushes down v-e-r-y slowly like taking 5-6 seconds to have pedal reach the floor. once pedal reaches the floor the person at pedal says "close" and people at bleeders close nipples and repeat back "closed" when they are closed. Person at the pedal lifts foot off of pedal at a similar 5-6 second pace to reach the top and upon reaching the top repeats the process with "open", and so on.

most people are used to the typical old school pump up the pedal 5 or 6 times then open a bleed nipple. This will just block off the half of the system with the least pressure and possibly lock that pressure differential valve permanently. Once at rest for a long enough amount of time, the system equalizes pressures from bleedback to the master and then the differential valve pops open, introducing air pocket back to system.

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

You need to bench bleed the master cylinder with the bleed ports as described in another post.  Air in the MC will result in a squishy pedal regardless of how often you bleed it.  As an "SE-R guy", don't ask me how I know... big_smile

If you want to get a whole new unit, Rockauto.com has them, complete with the reservoir, for $105.  Had a buddy just order from them.  The Nissan P/N is 46010-69Y20, and a search on Rockauto.com yields Dorman P/N M390000 which has the Nissan P/N listed there.

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

BTW, for pads, check out this thread:

http://www.sr20forum.com/road-racing/26 … ost2526426

Did you start that thread?

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

Thanks for the help guys. Turns out we just weren't bleeding things correctly. Like I said, the fail is strong with us.

And thanks for the heads up on pads, I didn't start that thread but I did learn a lot from it.

At this point I am cautiously optimistic that we may complete a lap or two before something else breaks smile

Emily's Power for a Cure 1990 Mazda Miata (I Got Screwed 2014 Southern Discomfort)
Help in the fight against Neuroblastoma, a devastating childhood cancer.
http://emilyspowerforacure.com/

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

rockwood wrote:

BTW, for pads, check out this thread:

http://www.sr20forum.com/road-racing/26 … ost2526426

Did you start that thread?

I did.  We used the Mitsu Hawk Blues on the NX calipers last race and they were awesome.

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

Those NX calipers are a great upgrade. I base this on a quick run around the block which resulted in the evil eye from the boys in blue. The 60 rubber ducks glued to the roof and full race colors tend to attract unwanted attention smile

Emily's Power for a Cure 1990 Mazda Miata (I Got Screwed 2014 Southern Discomfort)
Help in the fight against Neuroblastoma, a devastating childhood cancer.
http://emilyspowerforacure.com/

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

Crazybob wrote:

Those NX calipers are a great upgrade. I base this on a quick run around the block which resulted in the evil eye from the boys in blue. The 60 rubber ducks glued to the roof and full race colors tend to attract unwanted attention smile

Yeah, but then the men in blue probably think, Do I want to stop this nutjob? smile We know we are nutz to race $500 cars.

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

Sanity is highly overrated.

Emily's Power for a Cure 1990 Mazda Miata (I Got Screwed 2014 Southern Discomfort)
Help in the fight against Neuroblastoma, a devastating childhood cancer.
http://emilyspowerforacure.com/

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

bob-e wrote:
rockwood wrote:

BTW, for pads, check out this thread:

http://www.sr20forum.com/road-racing/26 … ost2526426

Did you start that thread?

I did.  We used the Mitsu Hawk Blues on the NX calipers last race and they were awesome.

Glad we could help.  That braking setup has been an SE-R road racing staple for eons now. big_smile

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

yeah, thanks a bunch.  shout out to www.sr20forum.com  you guys have been a great resource for us.

Re: Brake system "upgrades" end in spectacular failure

I've been a member of sr29forum and se-r.net for a long time, they're both great resources and I scored some cool stuff like a MSD unit and coil cheap and wires and odd repair parts cheaply. Both great communities.

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1989 Daihatsu Charade