1 Topic by CBraden (edited by CBraden 2010-07-20 07:27 AM)

  • From: Dallas suburbs. Help me.
  • Registered: 2010-04-21
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Topic: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

Ford... currently serpentine, but I don't have the tensioner or alt mount, so want to go v-belt.

Any suggestions on the best salvage yard vehicle to pillage to get just the alt and h2o pump driven? Any consideration for finding the biggest alternator pulley/smallest crank pulley to keep accessory speed in check under all out 4200 RPM crank speed (this 302 is way underpowered/cammed)?

Do all the 302 cranks use the same pulley mounting (regardless of balance)?

Obviously, I am just getting started here...

Thanks in advance for help.

  • From: Toronto, Ontario
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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

If you're backfitting a serpentine drive, you can relocate the tensioner and keep your current crank pulley....I think Summit lists the kit from Trick Flow. Easy to source underdrive alt pulleys with the serpentine system....either way, you won't likely overspeed the water pump...if your engine is old enough to have vee-belts, think about tossing the OEM Ford alternator if it has an external regulator...if you're fabbing brackets anyway, I like the Delco 12si or similar old-school internal regulator type. Reliable (strong diodes) and can be rebuilt yourself with a cheap kit.  What's the car?

Jim "Endo" Anderton
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  • From: Dallas suburbs. Help me.
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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

Jim, I don't have the tensioner, and the budget isn't going to allow anything from anywhere other than a salvage yard (Summit wants ~$100 for the pulley, whereas I can buy whole motors for not much more than that with all the pulleys).

I actually want a simpler alternator as I am ditching all the OEM wiring, I'll look at the Delco - thanks.

This is an engine swap, but the donor car was an 80's Mustang. Target car is a very rusty Opel GT.

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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

Obviously a pre-serpentine 302 will do the trick which are probably something like pre-1985.

Most v-belts turn the water pump the same direction as the crank where a serpentine spins the pump the other way.

So you will probably need a water pump and pulley.

Troy

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5 Reply by CBraden (edited by CBraden 2010-07-20 09:55 AM)

  • From: Dallas suburbs. Help me.
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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

Thanks guys, I was assuming that some cars/trucks have belts that go around A/C and alternator/h2o, some had just h2o and alt on a belt, etc.

Couple of extra nice to haves:
double belts on alt and h2o pulleys that align with stock brackets, and
alternators that fit in tight to the block (I don't have much room)

Thanks again - looking for specific vehicles to look for in salvage yard / craigslist that meet above.

  • From: Hayward, CA
  • Registered: 2010-03-23
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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

CBraden wrote:

Jim, I don't have the tensioner, and the budget isn't going to allow anything from anywhere other than a salvage yard (Summit wants ~$100 for the pulley, whereas I can buy whole motors for not much more than that with all the pulleys).

Go to the JY and find a 90-95 4 runner, or look in the engine compartments of various modern cars to find a stand alone tensioner pulley. Then unbolt and take it home for $5. Fab up some brackets to allow use of a shorter serpentine belt.

As for Alternator, they are pretty much all the same. Just get a wiring diagram to figure out what you have for non-essential wiring.

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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

Hey Charles, I have a couple of 85 and up mustang alternators and might have a little bit of the serp. belt brackets and tensioner parts you can have......

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  • btp76
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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

I used the serpentine stuff and built an idler pulley over on the drivers side head.  I also used GM 12si alternators in the stock ford bracketry.  I'm in Dallas near White Rock Lake if you want to come by and see.

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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

Ford Windsor stuff doesn't interchange readily. Be prepared for multiple frustrating junkyard trips.

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  • From: Choctaw, Oklahoma
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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

FYI, if you overspeed your waterpump you won't blow it up or anything, instead you'll cavitate your coolant, which means you pump the coolant so fast that the pressure drops. Lower pressure = lower boiling point. The coolant boils and can't be pumped momentarily and you lose cooling ability for about 5 seconds. Eventually (after several of these incidents) your head gasket starts leaking.

In a stock early RX-7 the water pump cavitates over 6500rpm. I don't know at what rpm the water pump cavitates on a 302.

11 Reply by CBraden (edited by CBraden 2010-07-22 07:06 AM)

  • From: Dallas suburbs. Help me.
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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

Thanks all (jw33 - I was trying not to ask for anything until it was cage time!) btp76 I may come check out what you fab'd if I go serpentine thanks for the offer.

I like the simplicity of v-belts and the lack of tensioners... but it looks like I may look at serpentine after all... I don't want this to turn into a 40 hour ordeal...

  • From: Toronto, Ontario
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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

If you go vee-belts, and you use a new belt, it will stretch like hell  and possibly jump the pulleys....if you can run it for an hour or two at temperature, then re-tighten it should be OK....but check tension at the end of the day's racing....if you use a timing light at various RPM's you can see if the belt is tracking well....

Jim "Endo" Anderton
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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

I'd, personally, be afraid of V belts rolling over and coming off, but that may just be my drag racing background talking.

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  • From: Dallas suburbs. Help me.
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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

Wow, I had no idea v-belts were problematic in racing - I assumed they would be the more reliable solution...  thanks for all the replies.

bpt76 - part of initial thought to use v-belts was based on that jet-like whine your pulley emitted @ TMS... while cool sounding, it would have worried me non-stop.

  • From: Toronto, Ontario
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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

V-belts have been used for years in racing.....you just need to get the pulleys aligned and remember that you have to adjust tension manually....If you have a low inertia engine i.e. severely lightened flywheel, the belt can jump if you slam the throttle closed but it's never happened to me including the odd thrown rod that locked the engine instantly.....if you use the timing light and blip the throttle you'll see any damaging whip....either belt option is good...one advantage of v-belts is that you can sometimes run double pulleys.....two belts need less tension and give you some redundancy...on the other hand, a good tensioner with a serpentine and you should have a maintenance free solution....

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....
  • From: Choctaw, Oklahoma
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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

If you have a low inertia engine i.e. severely lightened flywheel, the belt can jump if you slam the throttle closed

I've never had any trouble with my RX-7 and it revs (and sounds) like a chainsaw. Of course I think it helps that the belt only goes around the crank, alternator, and water pump. If you can keep the belt length short it won't be a problem.

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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

That whine was awesome sounding wasn't it?  I stopped worrying about it after a few hours.  The idler is OE Ford off of another application.  I have a spare, but if it ain't broke...

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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

Dave of the v8olvo team had the same issue on the 302 in that car, it took many trips to the JY and same fab work to come up with a reliable v-belt system in that car.

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  • From: Santa Margarita, CA
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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

You're willing t to go to the junkyard to scrounge parts but won't scrounge for a superior belt system with few problems. Vee belts are positively ancient technology.

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  • From: Choctaw, Oklahoma
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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

Vee belts are positively ancient technology.

If it ain't broke...

21 Reply by CBraden (edited by CBraden 2010-07-28 02:23 PM)

  • From: Dallas suburbs. Help me.
  • Registered: 2010-04-21
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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

Positively ancient technology is appropriate for my 1972 car, no?

Now where can I find a points ignition for a 302...

  • From: Santa Margarita, CA
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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

EriktheAwful wrote:

Vee belts are positively ancient technology.

If it ain't broke...

They did, and have been fixed by replacing with better technology. I do like those make-your-own-belt things with removable links, though.

My 323 GTX threw one belt every once in a while, and it was the Vee belt, never the serpentine that ran the heavy loads.

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  • From: Columbia, South Cackalacke
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Re: 302 alternator and water pump only with v belts

Serpentine drive water pumps on Fords definitely run backwards.

We had a lot of problems with V belts rolling over with the 351W we ran at CMP a couple of years ago, that ultimately cost us an engine. Looking back, what we should have done is the same thing dirt trackers have done for years: run the water pump directly off the crank by getting a belt short enough. Best way to do that: bolt the pulleys in place, wrap a narrow tape measure around the pulleys centered in the groove, add ~1/4" and go find a belt at the parts store. That way there's nothing else to create a long run, which was our downfall. To install the belt, you have to take the water pump pulley off, slip the belt around it, then put it around the crank and wiggle the W/P pulley into place. It doesn't have to be super tight, around 1/2" slack is fine.

The alternator can be run directly off of a double groove water pump pulley by using washers to space it out. Or, if it's easier, run the alternator off the rear groove and run the water pump off the front groove. If you have to have power steering (and the ThunderTerd needed it bad) you run a belt directly off of the crank to the P/S pump pulley. Again it's spacer time.

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