Topic: ECM memory wire and kill switch pie in the sky theory.

This is not a huge deal either way, because we have a car that doesn't depend heavily on fuel trim history from the ECM, but are we allowed to run a memory wire from the battery to the ECM independent of the kill switch?

A workaround for this, I imagine, is placing one of those huge caps that would feed juice to the ECM when everything is offline.

-Eric
Team Dead Presidents
MR2 President Yee-Haw Lemons Texas 2010 (Yes, it WAS bouncing up and down the WHOLE time!)

Re: ECM memory wire and kill switch pie in the sky theory.

So long as throwing the kill switch kills both the ignition and battery circuits and thus kills the engine, you should be fine. The test for this at tech is to have your motor running, then they throw the switch. If the car dies, you pass.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: ECM memory wire and kill switch pie in the sky theory.

I was thinking that absolutely everything had to shut off, but I re-read the rules.

Both the main battery circuit and the ignition circuit must be interrupted by the kill switch (if you don't do that, the engine may still run off the alternator even after the battery circuit is disconnected).

Tech inspectors may not like it though.

Re: ECM memory wire and kill switch pie in the sky theory.

EriktheAwful wrote:

I was thinking that absolutely everything had to shut off, but I re-read the rules.

Both the main battery circuit and the ignition circuit must be interrupted by the kill switch (if you don't do that, the engine may still run off the alternator even after the battery circuit is disconnected).

Tech inspectors may not like it though.

I pulled in under a black flag, Judge Jonny told me to kill the car, I did but the radiator fans were still going. He immediately told me to go fix the wiring so there was no power to anything. So you can interpret this any way you want but you still might not pass tech, or the Judges.

Team: V-Ram/Altamont Team: Knights of the Round Track/Reno/Buttonwillow/Thunderhill Team: Death Mobile/Sears 2010/Thunderhill/ChumpCar  Spokane/ MSR Houston/Buttonwillow/Sears. MRolla Project /Reno
http://stickfigureracing.blogspot.com/

Re: ECM memory wire and kill switch pie in the sky theory.

Radiator fans are audible, ECMs are not...  YMMV.

Re: ECM memory wire and kill switch pie in the sky theory.

OverStimulated wrote:

Radiator fans are audible, ECMs are not...  YMMV.

TOUCHE''''''

Team: V-Ram/Altamont Team: Knights of the Round Track/Reno/Buttonwillow/Thunderhill Team: Death Mobile/Sears 2010/Thunderhill/ChumpCar  Spokane/ MSR Houston/Buttonwillow/Sears. MRolla Project /Reno
http://stickfigureracing.blogspot.com/

Re: ECM memory wire and kill switch pie in the sky theory.

I understand.  Since this is, more or less, potentially a safety issue. since there would be a 12 volt wire live in the car, I can see where they wouldn't.  I would like to hear the judges perspective on this though.

-Eric
Team Dead Presidents
MR2 President Yee-Haw Lemons Texas 2010 (Yes, it WAS bouncing up and down the WHOLE time!)

Re: ECM memory wire and kill switch pie in the sky theory.

The wire from the battery to the switch is live also, so you simply can't have *everything* killed.
In any event, I would suggest an in-line fuse for that wire.

"I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!"
IOE winner in the Super Snipe -- Buttonwillow 2012
IOE winner in Super Snipe v2.0 -- Buttonwillow 2016
"Every Super Snipe in Lemons has won an IOE!"

Re: ECM memory wire and kill switch pie in the sky theory.

Way ahead of you.  I've got a 100 amp fuse set up on it.  My car audio days of my youth and my half arsed college "edumacation" are coming in handy, barely.

-Eric
Team Dead Presidents
MR2 President Yee-Haw Lemons Texas 2010 (Yes, it WAS bouncing up and down the WHOLE time!)

Re: ECM memory wire and kill switch pie in the sky theory.

Does it need 12 volts and full current? Maybe a 9V transistor battery in the circuit would keep it alive during kill switch testing and still be in the spirit of the rules...

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: ECM memory wire and kill switch pie in the sky theory.

The memory wire requirements are very small for an ECM but it does need 12 volts.  Instead of doing the battery thing with a transistor circuit to keep it alive, I could probably just put a big capacitor there across the 12 volt and ground rails to keep it alive.  That being said, it likely doesn't drain that fast anyway.  I think it takes around 15 minutes to fully bleed out based on the residual stored charge in any system.

-Eric
Team Dead Presidents
MR2 President Yee-Haw Lemons Texas 2010 (Yes, it WAS bouncing up and down the WHOLE time!)

Re: ECM memory wire and kill switch pie in the sky theory.

If you do use a big capacitor for the ECM, be sure to put a diode in series with the battery line (just before the capacitor).   You don't want the capacitor discharging through anything other than the ECM.

I hope your reference to the 100 amp fuse was for the line from the battery to the kill switch!   :-)
I'm sure the ECM doesn't take more than an amp (probably *much* less), which was the line I was referring to.

"I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!"
IOE winner in the Super Snipe -- Buttonwillow 2012
IOE winner in Super Snipe v2.0 -- Buttonwillow 2016
"Every Super Snipe in Lemons has won an IOE!"

13 (edited by NGinuity 2010-08-25 11:00 PM)

Re: ECM memory wire and kill switch pie in the sky theory.

CowDriver wrote:

If you do use a big capacitor for the ECM, be sure to put a diode in series with the battery line (just before the capacitor).   You don't want the capacitor discharging through anything other than the ECM.

I see the reasoning behind it, but looking at the schematic, I don't think this is absolutely necessary because the ECU is on the same fuse as the ignition switch.  The kill switch is breaking ignition and in essense, leaving this lead isolated, so it's not really competing with anything else.  Of course, if it were, that would certainly be a consideration.

EDIT: Just to make my last explanation clearer than mud, where we are breaking the circuit, for anyone interested, is before the ignition switch.  This break cuts off flow to both of the ECM and EFT computers, right after the fuse box (anyone with a 'Yota MR NOT, the AM2 fuse), in addition to shutting down the main engine relay feeding the ignition circuit.  That's where the constant 12 volt power is coming from, not after the ignition switch (Yes, I shook my head at my own explanation)

CowDriver wrote:

I hope your reference to the 100 amp fuse was for the line from the battery to the kill switch!   :-)
I'm sure the ECM doesn't take more than an amp (probably *much* less), which was the line I was referring to.

Indeed.  The main fuse is 100 amps.  There's no need to do double duty (doodie?  Haha! I said doodie!  Ok, I'm back now.) on what the car's fuse block is already doing.

-Eric
Team Dead Presidents
MR2 President Yee-Haw Lemons Texas 2010 (Yes, it WAS bouncing up and down the WHOLE time!)

Re: ECM memory wire and kill switch pie in the sky theory.

CowDriver wrote:

If you do use a big capacitor for the ECM, be sure to put a diode in series with the battery line (just before the capacitor).   You don't want the capacitor discharging through anything other than the ECM.

I hope your reference to the 100 amp fuse was for the line from the battery to the kill switch!   :-)
I'm sure the ECM doesn't take more than an amp (probably *much* less), which was the line I was referring to.

Wow! I hadn't considered that aspect of things.. Shows what a luddite I am
Can you  please walk me through this?
  In the past I ran a dead loss system so a single pole dual throw switch would kill the battery and shut down the igntion.  When I was Finally forced to run a alternator I simply bought a kill switch with provisions to protect the alternator. 
Now I need to protect the alternator and the ECM.
  Frankly I'm having difficulty trying to figure it out..
If you're going to explain it to me, pretend I'm a three year old and only understand colors of wires.

15 (edited by EyeMWing 2010-09-05 08:35 PM)

Re: ECM memory wire and kill switch pie in the sky theory.

OMGuar wrote:
CowDriver wrote:

If you do use a big capacitor for the ECM, be sure to put a diode in series with the battery line (just before the capacitor).   You don't want the capacitor discharging through anything other than the ECM.

I hope your reference to the 100 amp fuse was for the line from the battery to the kill switch!   :-)
I'm sure the ECM doesn't take more than an amp (probably *much* less), which was the line I was referring to.

Wow! I hadn't considered that aspect of things.. Shows what a luddite I am
Can you  please walk me through this?
  In the past I ran a dead loss system so a single pole dual throw switch would kill the battery and shut down the igntion.  When I was Finally forced to run a alternator I simply bought a kill switch with provisions to protect the alternator. 
Now I need to protect the alternator and the ECM.
  Frankly I'm having difficulty trying to figure it out..
If you're going to explain it to me, pretend I'm a three year old and only understand colors of wires.

Standard killswitch wiring for Lemons is as follows: Four terminal, (two pole) killswitch. One channel across the battery. This will kill battery power. Another channel on the ignition circuit (The one coming from the ignition key will do the job). If you were ambitious, you could do the same thing at the distributor, or anywhere else in the critical path from power to the spark plugs, but the graceful way to do it is with the ignition line from the ignition switch.

By interrupting the ignition circuit, you kill the spark, which in turn kills the alternator without doing anything that wouldn't happen if you turned the key to the off position. Bottom line the battery isn't supplying power and the alternator isn't supplying power.

My thoughts on the ECM are as follows: Fuckit. Too much work to care about keeping power to its memory circuit. If your car is in the kill position for more than like 5 minutes, it's probably legendarily broken anyway, and forgotten ECM settings aren't going to make anything any worse. If you're paranoid and store the car overnight with the killswitch in the off position, just run it around the paddock to relearn in the morning. If your ECM doesn't keep its memory alive for the few minutes here and there it's killed (tech kill test, and during fueling are the only times it's required to be dead AFAIK), it's probably the LEAST of your problems.


If you still need help wiring that shit up, I once wrote a really patronizing explanation that I'm pretty sure a 5 year old armed with a wiring diagram and screw driver could pull off.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear

Re: ECM memory wire and kill switch pie in the sky theory.

When I was a Nissan technician (1998-1999) and people brought their cars in for the 30k/60k/90k service, we would always clear the computer's self-learn (fuel trim). People always thought it felt more powerful afterwards if we did that. YMMV.

Re: ECM memory wire and kill switch pie in the sky theory.

OMGuar wrote:

Wow! I hadn't considered that aspect of things.. Shows what a luddite I am
Can you  please walk me through this?
  In the past I ran a dead loss system so a single pole dual throw switch would kill the battery and shut down the igntion.  When I was Finally forced to run a alternator I simply bought a kill switch with provisions to protect the alternator. 
Now I need to protect the alternator and the ECM.
  Frankly I'm having difficulty trying to figure it out..
If you're going to explain it to me, pretend I'm a three year old and only understand colors of wires.

You don't really need to keep power to the ECM/PCM alive with the kill switch flipped.  If you use the switch that Pegasus racing sells, you can wire it with a resistor to protect the alternator and ECM as shown in their "wiring instructions" document:

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/produc … RecID=1464

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Plymouth Neon
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