1 (edited by prime suspect 2010-10-05 04:24 PM)

Topic: the reason for the carburetion inquisition

the usual suspects MX6  went from barely running when we DNFed at gingerman in april to not running at all, we did a hillbilly rebuild of our spare motor ( the one in the car had some extra holes in it ) and after 5 or 6 MONTHS !! of tinkering, the purchase of a whole other running car to use as a diagnostic test platform and not being any closer to solving the problem even after missing the Capitol Offense race that we had already entered and paid for because the damn thing wouldnt run ( some of the team actually went to the race since we had the time off already, we were the guys that showed up at the end pulling the big black boat that we scattered a motor on the day before out on chesepeake bay ) I decided to scrap it and start from scratch on something SIMPLE to operate, diagnose and repair. 
     As much as I loved the crisp throttle, high revving computer controlled lightweight import motor and the neutral, very forgiving handling of the IRS equipped import chassis,  I would MUCH rather be on the track going slow than in the pits not going at all because of engine management bugs   . to quote Rick Mears " to finish first, you first must finish"
       After some discussion with a couple members of the team and We agreed that we really LIKED being one of the 5 fastest cars ( Its FUN to pass people !!! ) and that we would much rather haul ass and suck gas than go for an overall win by putting around the track in some mundane momentum import that doesnt even have enough horsepower to smoke a tire       screw that !!  lets build something COOL     so   the obvious choice was to start shopping for some 70s carbureted american iron , but they were too damn heavy, and the smaller ones were too underpowered,then I ran across a MONZA !!     AH HA !!   good power to weight, they came with all kinds of motors from V8s to 4cyls so we would have a wide range of power available   and you can still buy them CHEAP !!   
          After a couple days searching on craigslist I found what I was looking for   , A 77 spyder ( which are the V8 cars )   no motor, but everything else was there although pretty disassembled, Body is pretty beat up.  BUKU door dings and wrinkles here and there ,definatly NOT a candidate for a resto even though it is a spyder. Its a Colorado car ( still has colorado tags ) so very little rust         asking $600. BINGO
      I set up a day and time to drive up to Akron to check it out and keep looking for more Monzas. I know Im gonna need some parts so at least one more monza with manual trans,brakes and steering is going to be a must. Lemons godz smiled on me and I found a pair of monzas for $400 OBO about an hour farther north than the spyder and set it up to check out all 3 same day
     
       
     Couple days later I head north to check em out , first stop was the spyder in Akron and its a perfect Lemons candidate. I was actually thinking carbureted 4.3 V6 instead of V8 ( too nose heavy ) so after some haggling and letting Him keep the V8 trans setup, the power steering box,steering column and power brake setup for his other spyder project ( none of which I was going to use anyway )  We had a deal at $200    He did let me keep the V8 manifolds, oil pan and motor mounts just in case     lol 
  I pay him and tell Him I will be back  for the car in a day or 2 then head up to youngstown to look at the other 2 . They are both 4 cyls, one automatic and one 4 speed. The matic looks good ( moldy from sitting under trees since 87, but complete)  its really rusty underneath so the chassis isnt a keeper but the body panels are great.The 4 speed is wrecked pretty hard in the front but the underneath isnt as rusty so it will provide some suspension component spares. It still has the trans, the torque tube, shifter and clutch setup, manual brake and manual steering setup and dash cluster I will need and some decent sheet metal and wiring etc. so I buy em both for $300. 
        Now all I gotta do is combine the needed parts from the 3 , add S10 spindles, axles, rotors and calipers to get the car to 5 lug all around and rear disc , swap in what appears to be a fairly fresh 4.3 that I aquired from a tenant of mine that was a little short on His rent ( He got it from pick and pull as a spare for His Astro van ) slap on a dime a dozen marine intake and carb, cut the springs , add some used truck shocks and WAY LA !!!  We should have a decently fast ,reliable,easy to fix and keep running Lemons car !!!!   Im figuring on scrapping the remains of the parts cars after I get what I need and recouping at least 1/2 the initial investment AND selling the V8 stuff on E bay to finance the nickel and dime stuff to complete the project.
           Ive been looking at pics of the old IMSA Monzas and Im going to attempt to create a LeMony version of one of the DEKON IMSA Monzas .Actually the one they DIDNT build  , they never built a chassis # 1013  they skipped it , thought it would be bad luck...........well.........WE AINT SKEERED !!!!!  what could possibly go wrong ??   although to coincide with our chosen theme ( and to avoid being sued for copyright crap )  it will be the  "ITSA"   "deCON"  Monza     chassis number #1013 
       To see the cars ,including what we are starting with and what we will be trying to achieve   checkout the new pics album on our website titled  from mazda to MONZA !!!   
not sure what our next race will be but I will update this as things progress        link is below

http://www.myspace.com/rumblfish1966

spectator "Lamest Day 09",DNF "American Irony" 2010,DNS "Capitol Offense"2010,DNF "Gingervitis"2011,DNF"ShowroomShlock"2011 maybe someday....                                                                                     
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
"luckily I didnt go into the mountain,.......I went over the cliff. I was doin 300 MPH sideways and 100 ft. down at the same time............"

Re: the reason for the carburetion inquisition

I really like the idea of a 4.3 V6 in a Monza. Good choice. cool

Official photographer/Team Police Brutality|Speedycop & the Gang
Lackey-mechanic-whatever/NSF Racing
Sycophant/Judge Phil, Jay Lamm, Kim Harmon
Galaxie Driver/not Parnelli Jones

Re: the reason for the carburetion inquisition

Has anybody raced  one of these in Lemons yet ?   that would be really cool if we were the first monza !!

spectator "Lamest Day 09",DNF "American Irony" 2010,DNS "Capitol Offense"2010,DNF "Gingervitis"2011,DNF"ShowroomShlock"2011 maybe someday....                                                                                     
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
"luckily I didnt go into the mountain,.......I went over the cliff. I was doin 300 MPH sideways and 100 ft. down at the same time............"

Re: the reason for the carburetion inquisition

I remember driver side rear plugs were a PITA to change i.e. unbolt mount and jack engine PITA....If the 4.3 is just a SBC with the front two cylinders hacked off, you might want to check this. Maybe an access hole through the firewall? I think Sunbeam Tigers used that trick...

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: the reason for the carburetion inquisition

jimeditorial wrote:

I remember driver side rear plugs were a PITA to change i.e. unbolt mount and jack engine PITA....If the 4.3 is just a SBC with the front two cylinders hacked off, you might want to check this. Maybe an access hole through the firewall? I think Sunbeam Tigers used that trick...

Its the rear cylinders they deleted     i WISH it was the front ones   I wouldnt have to refab the motor mounts then      but yes     plugs will be fun to change

spectator "Lamest Day 09",DNF "American Irony" 2010,DNS "Capitol Offense"2010,DNF "Gingervitis"2011,DNF"ShowroomShlock"2011 maybe someday....                                                                                     
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
"luckily I didnt go into the mountain,.......I went over the cliff. I was doin 300 MPH sideways and 100 ft. down at the same time............"

Re: the reason for the carburetion inquisition

We've had a couple of Lemons Monzas, but they both failed early and often. You've got a great shot at the IOE with a Monza.

Re: the reason for the carburetion inquisition

Judge Phil wrote:

We've had a couple of Lemons Monzas, but they both failed early and often. You've got a great shot at the IOE with a Monza.

EXCELLENT !!            we will try to keep it as crappy as possible...................

spectator "Lamest Day 09",DNF "American Irony" 2010,DNS "Capitol Offense"2010,DNF "Gingervitis"2011,DNF"ShowroomShlock"2011 maybe someday....                                                                                     
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
"luckily I didnt go into the mountain,.......I went over the cliff. I was doin 300 MPH sideways and 100 ft. down at the same time............"

8 (edited by OMGuar 2010-10-07 05:12 AM)

Re: the reason for the carburetion inquisition

prime suspect wrote:
Judge Phil wrote:

We've had a couple of Lemons Monzas, but they both failed early and often. You've got a great shot at the IOE with a Monza.

EXCELLENT !!            we will try to keep it as crappy as possible...................

You are aware that the 4.3 weighs almost as much as the V8 aren't you? Yeh they had to do that to deal with the out of balance issue..  (90degree V6 is a lousy design). 
   Use a short water pump on the V8 and you can fit a 350 in where a V6 is currantly. That engine has better (internal) balance. Plus it's  far more available  (Most Chevy and GMC pickups used it)   I raced a stone stock 350 target master (cheap factory crate engine w/ hydraulic lifters) in a vintage car for years putting an average of 12 races a year on it..  Reved it up untill the valves floated (5800RPM) and then shift..  Then pulled it out and used it in our hauler for a few decades.  It was still running strong when I sold  the hauler. 
   I've  found used aluminum water pumps and intake manifolds for near nothing prices at swap meets.  Small block Chevy parts are the most common swap meet items out there.. You don't need or want more power in a Monza but a few pounds less on the front tires help..
The stock 4 speed in V8 monza's is a saganaw. treat it with care! very fragile!

It will help if you swap the ring and pinion from an automatic 4 cylinder with the one in the  V8.   That ratio is like 2.88 or something really high!  You are lucky to get 35,000 miles on the original clutch on the street.. It would be way too tall around most race tracks forcing a lot of extra shifts.. (not to mention causing slow lap times).