Topic: I have an idea.....

I'm not a newcomer to Lemons, but I am more or less a newcomer to racing, we haven't really had too much track time and we have a trophy to prove it.  In Lemons there are a lot of people like me and newbees who have never wheel to wheel raced.  It would be really awesome if there was a team or two that would set up a training course or something to be held on the track testing day before the race to give some general ins and outs of racing.  You can learn a lot about "racing" from games, etc, like where the line is and the best ways to pass, but the polite ways to do so aren't taught.  Most complaints about drivers on the track are about how bad they are at chopping someone off or driving like a dick or taking a wierd line, not about cheatiness.  We know most cheaty cars will blow up at some point, but asshole drivers unfortunately do not.  You can't teach an old dog new tricks, but for those of us who don't have any bad habits, I think I speak correctly when I say we don't want to develop any from not knowing.  A quick talk, going over some basic hand signals and non-dickhead moves, maybe a spin around the track with a follower or a spotter to give some pointers and we could start new drivers down a path of fun competitive racing instead of getting flipped off and grumbled about during pit stops.  This would be especially usefull at overcrowded tracks like MSR where a naive driver could actually hurt someone with uncourtious moves.
Who else thinks this might be cool or has thoughts about it?  Preinspection get togethers are held to check welds, cages, tech, etc, so why not a new driver orientation?

El Capitan de Substandard Racing -  Houston, Tx
2009 Yee Haw! It's Lemons Texas: 1973 Gremlin - Gremwow!
2010 Gator-O-Rama: 1973 Gremlin - Gremlin Express, Lassiez le Crapheaps Roulette - Gremlin - Most Heroic Fix
http://substandardracing.blogspot.com/

2 (edited by VKZ24 2010-12-02 07:09 AM)

Re: I have an idea.....

At a few events (CMP comes to mind) they actually have held a pre-race class the day before for the total newbies.

HPDE experience teaches you a lot of 'courtesy' type of items as well.  Proper hand signals being the most basic and helpful IMO.

Edit:  My 'racing' experience is limted to Lemons (I have done 6 of them) but I had over 50 HPDE event prior which taught me a ton.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: I have an idea.....

All it would take would be a medium size pail of cash and your wish could be a reality.

Collectively our team has 40 years of assorted W2W and dirt track racing, no road races up till having a crap can.
We all felt the same way when it came time to race so I signed us up for a track day with Chin Motorsports(not cheap)
We learned a bunch but still had the same feeling we were being asshats on some level during the race even though we were winning.
Just get out there and race, make bonehead moves and try to learn from them, that's what we are doing because practice uses up the racing budget and car. Perhaps you can find cheap track time and a street car to learn some technique.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: I have an idea.....

Team Infinniti wrote:

We all felt the same way when it came time to race so I signed us up for a track day with Chin Motorsports

No offense, but Chin events are NOT a good learning evironment, at least the one I went to wasn't.   It was full of rich guys with really fast cars who thought everyone else was in their way on thier track, even though we all paid for the same track time.  The Focus SVT I was driving was not at all welcome amongst the C6's, Viper's, BMW's, and GT3's.  One driver even asked in the driver's meeting why they should have to wai for a point to pass the really slow cars like ours.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: I have an idea.....

being in a Gremlin, you are not the dickhead no matter what move you make. The Gremmie is so far behind top 10 competitors, they have no problem passing you. those who do have a problem passing you (everyone else) have no chance of winning and shouldn't worry if it takes an entire lap (or 3) to pass.
you already do the right thing: stay to the outside, and wave people past when you feel your car wont wobble off course.

Yee-Haw 2010 "Most Heroic Fix" & "I Got Screwed" -2 trophies for 1 lap, but I took checkered on my lap.
Gator-O-Rama 2012 "Organizers Choice" -2 laps 1 trophy, but i still finished ahead of an E30
Yee-Haw 2013 No trophy -26 laps, I think I see a pattern here
Gator-O-Rama 2014 "Waiting for the Last Minute Call from the Governor Award" -who's counting? John

Re: I have an idea.....

Oddly enough (IMO) the fastest cars (and the largest ones) are the ones who seem to be the biggest d*cks out there.  It’s not always the case of course, but I’ve seen it happen a bunch.

At our last race our car wouldn’t stay in 2nd gear so we limped around in 3rd.  I was always mindful of who the leaders were and made sure to give them and the much faster cars a clear point-by so as not to hold them up.  You could always tell the experienced (and nicer) folks because they would acknowledge with a ‘thank you’ wave, which was much appreciated.  Yes, it’s a race but being courteous serves everyone well.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: I have an idea.....

I signed up for Chin for several reasons, first I did not know it would be less then ideal, yes it was full of rich guys but everyone was receptive and some were actually curious about our actual Crap heap we were using,we also wanted to shake the car down to see if it was ready to race or implode, it did some of both.

The main reason Chin got our $$ was because that track day was had on the actual track we were to do our first race at, we had a instructor sitting there showing us the line, something that eased our newbe butterflies later while sitting on the grid raceday.

Ideal , no way!    Worth the $$ as road course newbes YES YES YES.

Besides those rich guys love to humble experienced dirt track racers, because after all they do know more then us about fancy cars and such... LOL

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: I have an idea.....

Team Infinniti wrote:

The main reason Chin got our $$ was because that track day was had on the actual track we were to do our first race at

Sorry, my post was meant to steer the OP away from Chin, _if_ there was an alternative.  In your situation I would have done the same.  Around here (VIR in particular) Chin events commonly have people crashing REALLY expensive cars.  Like ones that cost more than my house.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: I have an idea.....

Chin and any other "track day" school isn't going to teach you how to race.  They're going to teach you things like how to read and drive the racing line, drive within the limits of your car, safely pass cars in THEIR environment, and hopefully teach you to watch for worker stations and flags, watch your mirrors and generally be aware. (which is great stuff if you have completely newb drivers!)

The only way to learn the "craft" of racing is to do it, though.  And while you're doing it, THINK not just about yourself, but about all the cars around you.  If you're focused on nothing but yourself and your line, you're guaranteed to be driving less-than-safely in traffic and pissing people off.

It's all about courtesy.  Yeah, you're racing all of the other guys, but you don't want to cause them (or you) to crash.  How do you accomplish that?  First, accept that the faster car has the right of way.  You'll never see that published anywhere, and you might not hear anyone else verbalize it, but if there's a car that has caught up to you on track, he IS faster than you.  You don't have to slow down to let him pass, but be consistent and be aware of where he is and aware that he IS going to try to pass you at the first opportunity.  When he makes that attempt, don't cock-block him, LET him pass. (then try to keep up with him and LEARN from him!)

When dealing with other traffic that you may have caught up to, bear in mind that some of them are also faster than you, they just got caught up in some traffic.  Regardless of who's faster, you have to be aware of where everyone is and when you enter that next turn, if there's a car to your left or right (as there inevitably WILL be), you have to give them space to BE there.  That means that you can't take your classic racing line.  You have to leave 10-12 feet on the inside for that car to BE there (hint:  If he's on your corner, he may very well be planning to take that inside line to get around you).  And if the car is on your outside, you can't track out and force him off-track.  You have to give that car space to exist, as well.

So, the "chopping" that we hear so much about is simply a matter of driver A not being aware that there's a faster car approaching from behind and about to pass him on the inside.  If he is aware of that car and loosens his apex by enough to let that car take a tight apex, all is well.  If he is not aware of the other car (or has a misguided perception of what "racing" is) and tries to take a classic racing line, then the passing car has to either nail the brakes mid-turn or hit you.

Lemons South 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Spring 2009 - Fail, Lemons Detroit(ish) 2008 - Fail, Lemons South Fall 2009 - Fail, Lamest Day 2009 - Fail, Miami 2010 (Chump) - 2nd!, Sebring 2010 (Chump) - Fail, Cuba 2010 - Crew Chief, Roebling 2011 (Chump) - 8th!, Sebring 2011(Chump) - 19th!

Re: I have an idea.....

I will give you a + 1 on this, stay away from Chin unless theres good reason like with us.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: I have an idea.....

Loren wrote:

So, the "chopping" that we hear so much about is simply a matter of driver A not being aware that there's a faster car approaching from behind and about to pass him on the inside.  If he is aware of that car and loosens his apex by enough to let that car take a tight apex, all is well.  If he is not aware of the other car (or has a misguided perception of what "racing" is) and tries to take a classic racing line, then the passing car has to either nail the brakes mid-turn or hit you.

I agree, but there is a certain point at which each of those drivers needs to decide who is 'going to give' so to speak.  If a guy dive-bombs you in the braking zone just so he can barely stick his nose under you (like he can't even get to your door) then he needs to brake and give you the apex...assuming that's where you (the lead car) was headed of course.  Now if that same guy can make it side by side with you _AND_ keep his car under control (not track out into you as you said) then you should hold your line and let him have the apex.  However what happens more often is the guy runs out of brakes and slams into the outside lead car.

Each driver (the experienced ones IMO) each has his/her own method of decision making out there.  For example in my case I automatically assume that if a car ahead of me is all the way track left before a right-hand turn, he IS going to dive to the apex even if I can out break him and get there first.  This happens with me vs. the Crown Vics all the time, and I'm well aware that challenging their car with its' 1,000 lb. weight advantage will not end well for our little Honda.  In that case I let them have the apex, but when they exit their heavy-ass car tracks so far wide I can safely drive right under them.  Translation...I know (they do too) that I will get by eventually so there is no need to push a bad situation for ONE position in an endurance race.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: I have an idea.....

I think the best W2W experience that can be had on planet earth for automotive racing is... get ready for it...

Go Kart Racing!

I raced in the OVKA for 4 years and flat out, it's a family club, some of the racers there are helpful, some are deceptive, but you get cheap practice days (local track was $10 to the owner and you could run all day) and during actual races you had to learn hand communications and visual cues as well as studying driver behavior. you either learn very quickly to navigate through traffic with no brake lights, head lights, or turn signals, or you have some very unpleasant contact with nothing between you and the next guy cept maybe some rubber, a thin nerf bar, or some kinda plastic fairing...kinda like driving a hooptie saturn smile In the end though since it's a family environment(not the nationals, but local clubs) many people are happy to help, it's like "Lemons lite". In 10 Lemons races and a UCR I've had no car-car contact.

Re: I have an idea.....

This is the perfect "attitude" for racing an endurance race like Lemons.

I would add that you should keep your line through a corner, and not drive off your line to let someone pass.  Often they may be setting up to pass you off-line and you end up swerving right in front of them and pissing them off (when you think you're being courteous).

Loren wrote:

Chin and any other "track day" school isn't going to teach you how to race.  They're going to teach you things like how to read and drive the racing line, drive within the limits of your car, safely pass cars in THEIR environment, and hopefully teach you to watch for worker stations and flags, watch your mirrors and generally be aware. (which is great stuff if you have completely newb drivers!)

The only way to learn the "craft" of racing is to do it, though.  And while you're doing it, THINK not just about yourself, but about all the cars around you.  If you're focused on nothing but yourself and your line, you're guaranteed to be driving less-than-safely in traffic and pissing people off.

It's all about courtesy.  Yeah, you're racing all of the other guys, but you don't want to cause them (or you) to crash.  How do you accomplish that?  First, accept that the faster car has the right of way.  You'll never see that published anywhere, and you might not hear anyone else verbalize it, but if there's a car that has caught up to you on track, he IS faster than you.  You don't have to slow down to let him pass, but be consistent and be aware of where he is and aware that he IS going to try to pass you at the first opportunity.  When he makes that attempt, don't cock-block him, LET him pass. (then try to keep up with him and LEARN from him!)

When dealing with other traffic that you may have caught up to, bear in mind that some of them are also faster than you, they just got caught up in some traffic.  Regardless of who's faster, you have to be aware of where everyone is and when you enter that next turn, if there's a car to your left or right (as there inevitably WILL be), you have to give them space to BE there.  That means that you can't take your classic racing line.  You have to leave 10-12 feet on the inside for that car to BE there (hint:  If he's on your corner, he may very well be planning to take that inside line to get around you).  And if the car is on your outside, you can't track out and force him off-track.  You have to give that car space to exist, as well.

So, the "chopping" that we hear so much about is simply a matter of driver A not being aware that there's a faster car approaching from behind and about to pass him on the inside.  If he is aware of that car and loosens his apex by enough to let that car take a tight apex, all is well.  If he is not aware of the other car (or has a misguided perception of what "racing" is) and tries to take a classic racing line, then the passing car has to either nail the brakes mid-turn or hit you.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

14 (edited by Serj 2010-12-02 08:42 AM)

Re: I have an idea.....

I have another thing to add to help the newbs; especially ones with an aggressive streak. Assume the guy in front of you does not see you, period. Establish the belief that they will not see you, and will continue about their business until you are door-to-door. NOT nose-to-door. The reason for this is assumed peripheral line of vision. someone in a crown vic with no mufflers isn't going to hear a Fiero right next to them, and certainly won't see their nose over their huge doors. I cannot emphasize how many times using this mentality has saved my bacon in a corner, even when i was the guy in the crown vic! Keep your eyes open, and be patient, These races go for 14+hours not 14 minutes. A single corner will not "win" you anything, cept maybe the ire of the guy you wind up plowing into, definitely will win you a stretch in the penalty box though.

Re: I have an idea.....

I'm glad I've spurred constructive conversation about this.  Usually I don't see talk about proper moves until after something bad happens and then it turns personal.  Good advice so far.

Hoonatic Racing wrote:

being in a Gremlin, you are not the dickhead no matter what move you make. The Gremmie is so far behind top 10 competitors, they have no problem passing you. those who do have a problem passing you (everyone else) have no chance of winning and shouldn't worry if it takes an entire lap (or 3) to pass.
you already do the right thing: stay to the outside, and wave people past when you feel your car wont wobble off course.

Well, this post was more for newbees that thought they actually might win or for Substandard when we someday might get a "competitive" car.  All I tell the drivers on my team is to just stay out of the way and don't make crazy moves.  First lap I ever took when the flag dropped, I overloaded the radio screaming "Holy shit they're fast!!"  Didn't help that I was on the back straight of MSR when the flag dropped.

El Capitan de Substandard Racing -  Houston, Tx
2009 Yee Haw! It's Lemons Texas: 1973 Gremlin - Gremwow!
2010 Gator-O-Rama: 1973 Gremlin - Gremlin Express, Lassiez le Crapheaps Roulette - Gremlin - Most Heroic Fix
http://substandardracing.blogspot.com/

Re: I have an idea.....

Since we're talking about things to tell newbie-ish drivers...

I will also add these things increase your chance of crashing:

1)  Long long yellow flags - right after there is a LOT of pent up aggression, people drive recklessly for about 15 minutes it seems - increase your risk of crashing.

2)  "Racing" against only one other car that is running very similar lap times, and then trying to "beat" that car around the track - increases your risk of crashing.

3)  Not understanding that your vehicle changes as the day goes on, and can be drastically different the next time you jump in (tires, brakes, susp, etc..) - increases your risk of crashing.

4)  Not understanding the concept of wet and dry lines - increases your risk of crashing.

I would also suggest that people pick up a book on racing techniques and do a little reading prior to their first time on the track.  It may sound stupid/weak/silly to read to get prepared to drive, but it can help a ton.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: I have an idea.....

Starting off in a slow car teaches volumes about courteous yet competitive driving. Not only do you get lots of practice staying out of everyone's way and making your intentions clear, but you get to see over and over what dickhead drivers do vs the class acts (the latter often ending up in the top 10).

And that's good insight for when you finally do go fast.

"Real ZomBees prefer Bacon"
IOE(x2) MGB/SAAB 96, Judge's Choice, Class C Win, & 2011 Hooniverse Car of the Year!
MRolla, Stick Figure/Animal House, Free Range MR2, SAAB Sonett, "The Death Flip"
2008 Exoskeleton Jag Fiasco, Concours d Lemons - Rue Britannia, worse British car.

Re: I have an idea.....

Serj wrote:

Assume the guy in front of you does not see you, period.

Great advice Serj.

I'd like to ad this little tid-bit also...There is NO flag that means SLAM ON THE BRAKES.  Nope, not even the red flag means that.  When you see a yellow flag it means use caution and slow down (not instantly!) to the appropriate speed to allow for a situation up ahead.

If you are new to racing or even just driving on a track learn the flags before you get there, even if you learn nothing else.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: I have an idea.....

I just go by a bumper sticker I read one day:

Most people can't drive, I call these people "everyone but me"

Seriously, until I know the guy I'm racing with, by observing them on track, I assume that their sole purpose is to take me out or get me a black flag.  The other part is on your next shift, that awesome driver in the e30 has been replaced by his inbred cousin. (no offense intended to e30 drivers)

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!

Re: I have an idea.....

youtube videos are wonderful for helping people learn what to do and not to do on track as well. learn from other people's mistakes miles and months before you ever put a wheel out on the track. it'll also show you the lines if you're watching the track you're going to be racing at. general rule of thumb, if you're watching one of these videos and say "well that was a dumb move" it probably isn't something you want to repeat on track.

everything else that has been said is golden. remember, you're racing for 14+ hours. there isn't a single car out there you need to beat on track, most of these races are won off track, and usually before everyone even gets to the track (aka, prepping the car and team to minimize time you're not driving down to very fast fuel stops) that's how all endurance races are won, actually... rarely if ever will the car with the fastest lap time at the end of the race be the one bringing home the nickels.