Topic: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

How much boost were you guys running?  Also, can you tell me a little about your engines?

We were only running 9/11 lbs boost, and I'm trying to figure how much boost we can run safely.  The engine info (miles, what's been replaced/repaired) could also be helpful.

I'd love to crank it up a bit, but not at the risk of head gasket problems.

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

Ask the guys from Hennessey Tuning that run the XR4Ti at MSR every year. Have you seen the turbo in that thing? It's wicked fast ... when it's actually running and/or not in the penalty box.

Summer's Eve Racing - '09 Yee-Haw; '10 Gator-O-Rama, NorDal Hooptie, Yee-Haw; '11 Gator-O-Rama, NorDal Hooptie (Winner, Class A!)
TARP Racing - '11 Yee-Haw, Heaps; '12 Gator-O-Rama (Winner, Class C ... Looking for a Class B Win to Complete the Trifecta!), Heaps; '13 NorDal Hooptie, Gator-O-Rama

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

While you're at it, see if you can get the Pratt & Miller guys to give up what they did to hot up their motor at Gingerman too. smile

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

Mulry wrote:

While you're at it, see if you can get the Pratt & Miller guys to give up what they did to hot up their motor at Gingerman too. smile

Considering one of our guys helped both those teams out, maybe I'd get a little info.  If not, no biggie.

I'd just rather not blow the thing up for an extra 20 HP.  I do know the other TC to run in Lemons was able to run a whole race at 15 psi max.

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

check out www.turboford.com

There's all kind of info on that site... sorry I couldn't be any more help...

____________________________________
Always running on E \ ' ' ' ' F 
Speedycop and the Gang of Outlaws Official Ten+ Time Loser
Owner #132 Lancia/Toyota Beta/MR2 Scorpion

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

I've played with turbo 2.3's a bit, my SVO was one of the more fun cars I've owned.

Stock turbo, you can push 25lbs into the engine without spilling the guts. The turbo will be so overworked at that level you will need to change it when you pit for gas.

I would set it up at 15 and roll it all weekend.


now you have me thinking about finding another turbo 2.3 for the pintostang...

Team Lost in the Dark
Winner " I got screwed" and "Jay's dream car"
2012 Gulf region champs

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

I'm trying to find out boost level of cars w/ blown headgaskets (2.3Turbo ford).  This way, I can hopefully avoid that failure. 

Turboford.com doesn't have a whole lot of crapcan endurance info.  I've looked at their site as well as the natomessageboard.com for turbo t birds.  The only guy that has given me crapcan info is a guy from FL who has done 2 races, without head gasket failure.

My original idea was to replace this engine w/ a carbed 5.0.  It's run so well that I think we'll run it tilll it dies.  Either that or swap this engine/trans into my 2002:)

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

Anything over 0 is a ticking time bomb with the 2.3. On the flip side with no boost you can almost drive it as hard as you want not blow up a 2.3 if you keep it below 6k RPM's

Shake and Bake
America, birthplace of the missionary position. You're welcome...

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

Don't rev it, make sure your charge cooling works (if you don't have it get a starion intercooler AND run 110LL or something).

The highest throttle body-measured air temps I had ever seen was on a non-intercooled 2.3T, nearly 390F!!! Stock intake and wired shut wastegate.

Team Dai Hard Home Page

1989 Daihatsu Charade

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

I run 12-14 psi on THE Tools XR4Ti.  We blew our head gasket and cracked our head while leading 4 hours into Gingerman in October.  The $10 head gasket had about 3000 street miles and 2000 miles of crapcan racing on it.  The engine, head, and turbo are all stock. The gasket was a $10 FelPro.

Team Principal- THE Tools - 1987  Merkur XR4Ti

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

Thanks for the info.  I 'm trying to remember what folks on the turbo bird site recommend for a head gasket, but it wasn't too expensive and is readily available.

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

Do these engines naturally have issues blowing head gaskets?  It shouldn't let go unless something is wrong (detonation, etc).  When they fail, how do they fail?  Fire ring pushed into the coolant passage?  Or is it completely broken?  Any signs of melting?

If an injector drops out or your fuel tank is full of rust cause your crapcan sat for 8 years, then you're going to have problems (melted/cracked pistons, head gasket, etc).  But if you have a reliable fuel system supplying enough fuel (AFRs at least into the 12s @WOT @max boost) and your timing isn't too agressive, it should run and run and run.  Run fresh wires to the fuel pump(s) and make sure they're getting as much voltage as possible.

Fit the largest intercooler you can within your budget.  Many stock '80s intercoolers are not very efficient and have quite a bit of pressure drop at ~15psi (specifically the volvo 240/740 intercooler, which is large, but not my first choice).

This probably goes without saying, but port the exhaust manifold to match the T3 inlet and use the .63 a/r turbine housing.  Better top end, less heat buildup.

There are different ways to get the same max boost.  Could run a stronger wastegate actuator, or just a bleed valve.  This will build boost slower, but that might not be a bad thing.  A ball & spring manual boost controller will often spike and then settle back down.  There is a delay in the signal to the WG actuator, so it should build boost quicker.

FastISH and the FURRiest 1991 Volvo 240 wagon
WV 13th, FL 8th (GRM), NJ 8th (B win), WV 4th (B win), NC 14th, NJ 14th, WV 62nd,  NH 17th, NY 54th
2012 Sears Point Outlaw...74th!

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

I think in crapcan endurance racing, everything tends to blow head gaskets.  Our car ran like a top at the last race, but we were at 11psi max.  I'd gladly trade the 20 or so HP for reliability, but if I can run 15 w/ similar reliabilty, then that's what we'd shoot for.

Very few of these cars were actually run in endurance races (beyond a 4 hour enduro), and that's when they're relatively new.  Put 175000 miles on it, then run for 14 hours- 2 or 3 times.  That's when things start to pop.

Next race, we'll probably bring it up 1 or 2 psi.

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

I think we're still planning on adding a turbo to the volvo before New Jersey next year, so we'll see how things go.  A lot of things could go wrong...I'm just hoping none of them do.

FastISH and the FURRiest 1991 Volvo 240 wagon
WV 13th, FL 8th (GRM), NJ 8th (B win), WV 4th (B win), NC 14th, NJ 14th, WV 62nd,  NH 17th, NY 54th
2012 Sears Point Outlaw...74th!

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

Ok so this might be a completely idiot question, but I have to ask.....

Any time I've had anything to do with turbos or superchargers, the fitting of these things was comparatively simple - the hard part comes when the amount of air going into the engine is outside the parameters for the stock ECU...so my question is, how do you solve that problem to make sure the mix is right and you don't melt pistons / bend rods / etc on a Lemons budget?

Steven

Pulp Friction #333 - Overall & Class 'A' winners of the 2012 North Dallas Hooptie
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Lap of Shame - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5U2S-cRd3U

16 (edited by towerymt 2010-12-27 11:46 AM)

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

G7owl wrote:

Ok so this might be a completely idiot question, but I have to ask.....

Any time I've had anything to do with turbos or superchargers, the fitting of these things was comparatively simple - the hard part comes when the amount of air going into the engine is outside the parameters for the stock ECU...so my question is, how do you solve that problem to make sure the mix is right and you don't melt pistons / bend rods / etc on a Lemons budget?

Steven

One option is to install or upgrade to a fuel system that is capable of running with boost and supplying proper fuel and ignition timing.  In our '91 Volvo, it's easy. There were factory turbo models using the same basic fuel system, so we plug 'n play the fuel and ignition ECU from a turbo model, change out the injectors for larger ones, and install the turbo+plumbing.  It's really simple, and it works.

If that's not easy, cheap, simple, or even plausible, you could just slap in some slightly larger injectors, retard the base timing, and run low boost on an otherwise "non-turbo" fuel system.  Kinda sorta works halfway decent sometimes.

Or you can install hobbs switches and extra injectors, or a more fancy piggyback system to add fuel.  One issue may be the ignition timing, so you may need to change the distributor, retard base timing, or otherwise find a way to not run 50 degrees advance when you only need 28 at a given point on the map in boost.

Some systems will scale up with a larger air mass meter, resistor wired in, and bigger injectors.  You need to do your homework here and monitor everything closely because you may alter ignition timing as a side effect, which can lead to broken pistons if you're not careful.

If you like a challenge, just use a draw-through or blow-through carb(s).

FastISH and the FURRiest 1991 Volvo 240 wagon
WV 13th, FL 8th (GRM), NJ 8th (B win), WV 4th (B win), NC 14th, NJ 14th, WV 62nd,  NH 17th, NY 54th
2012 Sears Point Outlaw...74th!

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

As far as ghettocharging goes, I think blow through carbs are probably the easiest, at least on a Lemons budget. 

Just get an o2 sensor and meter, so at least you know that you're melting pistons.

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

Read the plugs, throw an EGT sensor on the hottest cylinder, let 'er rip.

60qt cooler in the back seat filled with ice water for the water injection system, refill as needed.

FastISH and the FURRiest 1991 Volvo 240 wagon
WV 13th, FL 8th (GRM), NJ 8th (B win), WV 4th (B win), NC 14th, NJ 14th, WV 62nd,  NH 17th, NY 54th
2012 Sears Point Outlaw...74th!

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

Thanks for the replies smile

It's just as I thought....well beyond my capabilities!  I knew it was going to be one of those 'if you have to ask, you won't have the skill' sorta questions.

Pulp Friction #333 - Overall & Class 'A' winners of the 2012 North Dallas Hooptie
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Lap of Shame - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5U2S-cRd3U

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

Blow through requires boost-sensing fuel pressure so you don't force the fuel beck into the float bowl via the jets. Suck through is just plain shitty.

Bandaids like water injection are best left to drag racers and people who don't need 'just another mile PLEASE' of capacity after it runs out. The hardware to drop boost/timing when it runs out costs more than doing the hardware right in the first place.

Team Dai Hard Home Page

1989 Daihatsu Charade

Re: Gingerman Merkur and mustang/capri teams w/ 2.3 Turbo. What boost?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/DNC/IMG_0316.jpg

just do this.  Its completely stock..............and I have 2 on a shelf.........:evilgrin: