Re: Chumpcar Race Series
These guys got the stink eye from most of the competition, and I heard mumblings about People's Curse, but their car broke before they could become serious contenders.
The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Bench Racing → Chumpcar Race Series
These guys got the stink eye from most of the competition, and I heard mumblings about People's Curse, but their car broke before they could become serious contenders.
Hey John, Is the chump series going to honor lemon residual value cars?
Good question, we have run 5 races and have gotten a $350 value after each race that we have put into the car in different ways.
John, so assuming you read my previous post, would the brakes we are running be legal in Chump? We can pretty easily switch back to the stock stuff but we changed it over for a reason. Also if you guys are running Portland the speeds are going to be MUCH higher than in any Lemons race even with chicanes, it's a fast track. Our wheels are fine as they are $40 Summit steel cragars that weigh 70 pounds a piece with tires.
Hey John, Is the chump series going to honor lemon residual value cars?
This was also one of my main concerns. John and I have been working it over back and forth, but no definite decision has been made yet. I'll be sure to chime in here when we figure it out.
John, so assuming you read my previous post, would the brakes we are running be legal in Chump? We can pretty easily switch back to the stock stuff but we changed it over for a reason. Also if you guys are running Portland the speeds are going to be MUCH higher than in any Lemons race even with chicanes, it's a fast track.
When I first read the rules I grilled John about this '2x brakes and tires' rule because I thought it was TOO MUCH money. But, the point of view didn't matter, he was very adamant that it was a good rule and chumpcar was going to stick to it. If I were you I'd do two things: look for used/ebay prices for all the stuff on your car and print it off, to show a lower 'value' for all the things on the car, and: go to your local stealership and have them quote you all new brake components, including pads rotors backing plates everything you replaced, particularly since it's sure to be special order. If they can't get it OEM, pull quotes out of Hastings Motor News or some other high-dollar restoration type source. that will create a higher OEM value.
If those two things don't work, it's time to back track I guess. Maybe you could ask for an individual waiver if you have photos of the cracked pads, but I'm guessing there's no excuse for the rear if the stock ones just cooked a little - that's life.
One other tidbit of news. The rules we've all been subjected to are too long. I know that's not news, but what is news is that there will be a shorter, better version. The long rules are lawyer-inspired, and intended for obtaining insurance and track reservations. They will remain the 'end-all-be-all' rules, but there is going to be a much lighter 'competitor' version released with the full web page that will include basically everything we need to know as racers, in a much more useful format. And they will be delving a little deeper into the fun stuff, I understand, too.
***NEWS FLASH*** I just looked on the ThatOtherSeries.com website, and the rules have already been updated there. They're only 18 pages now, and totally reasonable to read. That's only slightly longer than Lemons, but I don't know if anyone's going to match the poetry of the Lemons rules
I'll give you an example of what we did with our 67 Plymouth Fury, keeping in mind we have continually updated stuff over 5 races now.
For Lemons this is all under safety, for Chumpcar? I don't know. We could easily put the stock drums and calipers on it and it would stop almost as well but we still have the safety issues. Also, just doing a quick search on Rockauto.com, new rear drums are $130 a piece and front rotors are $150 a piece, am I close enough with the 2X rule? That doesn't include new calipers, brake hoses, brake pads, etc, etc (which we of course already have with the car but are still included in the 2X rule). It's not like we are running a super fancy set-up, it's all stuff we have had engineered for us to work on our car.
Just wanted to share our saga of brakes on a giant car, not sure if this answers any questions or just makes the topic more complicated.
I was wondering how you managed to get that aircraft carrier hauled down from speed at Reno....although from my Fiero perspective, you had some grunt down the front straight as well....you have no idea how small you can feel around that Fury...
These guys got the stink eye from most of the competition, and I heard mumblings about People's Curse, but their car broke before they could become serious contenders.
http://www.ltdlx.org/albums/lemons10-07 … .sized.jpg
http://www.ltdlx.org/albums/lemons10-07 … .sized.jpg
The only way that car was $500 is if it was stolen.
The only way that car was $500 is if it was stolen.
Hmmm.... the rules seem to allow this.
I'll say it again - if they allowed stolen cars, half the teams would be driving Porsches.
I'll say it again - if they allowed stolen cars, half the teams would be driving Porsches.
Ok so maybe they got it Mafia style.
"This car is $500 right"
"No Sirs I am asking $10,000 for it"
*THWACK*
"$5,000???"
*KICK PUNCH BODYSLAM*
"ok ok $500!!!"
*click click* *BOOM*
"Thanks, nice doing business with ya."
Just go behind the water pipes, knock on the door three times and say, "My name is Tony Morello"...
I like that they have prize money for second and third place.
Wow, I didn't mean to start a bunch of drama.
E30 BMW's come stock with good brakes, but I think my friend's old 84 318 had rear drums. Otherwise, I think most were 4 wheel discs. With Spec E30 racing classes in NASA or SCCA or both, there are probably a lot of good pad options too.
67 Fury, not so great options.
Our old 240Z had marginal brakes. They suck compared to a Miata or E30 but are probably better than the Fury. There are a lot of bolt on upgrades from other Z cars so I worked out a mixture of various Z car parts and they work pretty good. Keeping similar displacement calipers to the master cylinder keeps the proportioning in check. With 3 races on the front pads, Porterfield R4's, they are still in great shape. Had to upgrade the rears to match the fronts to correct the bias. They aren't Brembos but they work really well.
Lemons has no limit on brakes, tires and wheels or any other safety item. Chump does but at 2X new OEM is still a lot of money. It just surprises me that someone would put a maximum limit on a safety item and still no minimum. Especially with 24 hour races with expected speeds over 120 mph. Most safety items have a minimum requirement and that's it.
Enough about brakes.
Chump Car looks more analytical/factual about BS inspections than Lemons.
While a lot of participants in Lemons take it as serious as any other race, some people perceive it as more of a show.
To me Lemons is like the war of the wrenchers. I wanna build the most bad ass car I can for $500. I think that is more in the thinking of Chump. Sure, they consider themes but they are into engineering too and award teams more for performance and doing well.
Chumpcar has a Yahoo Group: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/chumpcar/0
It's really a more appropriate place to discuss it then here in the Lemons forum.
To me Lemons is like the war of the wrenchers. I wanna build the most bad ass car I can for $500. I think that is more in the thinking of Chump. Sure, they consider themes but they are into engineering too and award teams more for performance and doing well.
QFT. Not everyone sees Lemons that way, many see it as 'how far can I stretch the rules'.
These guys got the stink eye from most of the competition, and I heard mumblings about People's Curse, but their car broke before they could become serious contenders.
http://www.ltdlx.org/albums/lemons10-07 … .sized.jpg
http://www.ltdlx.org/albums/lemons10-07 … .sized.jpg
I believe that car was the Octane TV car.
I saw the episodes on Comcast OnDemad. It may also be on their website. If they or their website is still around.
If it is the Octane TV car, Jay is on camera stating, the curse is for bad driving not cheating.
Yes, I am sure they had more than $500 in the Octane car. Even with fancy wheels, brakes and suspension, they didn't win, nor did they even come close.
These guys got the stink eye from most of the competition, and I heard mumblings about People's Curse, but their car broke before they could become serious contenders.
http://www.ltdlx.org/albums/lemons10-07 … .sized.jpg
http://www.ltdlx.org/albums/lemons10-07 … .sized.jpg
At a drivers meeting it was announced that this was a camera car and that they weren't racing for the win, so we should go easy on it. If somebody can convince their boss to let them go racing crap cans on company money, who are we to complain?
However, this car was often mistaken for the 7-series, which people didn't ignore when it came to voting time.
Troy wrote:To me Lemons is like the war of the wrenchers. I wanna build the most bad ass car I can for $500. I think that is more in the thinking of Chump. Sure, they consider themes but they are into engineering too and award teams more for performance and doing well.
QFT. Not everyone sees Lemons that way, many see it as 'how far can I stretch the rules'.
Ain't that what Lemons is all about? How good of a story you can come up with to get your cheatin' ass car in the race with no penalty laps?
If there is a race series, there will always be people who will stretch the rules. It aint cheatin until you are caught. My team has managed to build a car within the rules, mind you, no chance of winning, but we have a hell of a lot of fun.
troubleonwheels wrote:Troy wrote:To me Lemons is like the war of the wrenchers. I wanna build the most bad ass car I can for $500. I think that is more in the thinking of Chump. Sure, they consider themes but they are into engineering too and award teams more for performance and doing well.
QFT. Not everyone sees Lemons that way, many see it as 'how far can I stretch the rules'.
Ain't that what Lemons is all about? How good of a story you can come up with to get your cheatin' ass car in the race with no penalty laps?
If there is a race series, there will always be people who will stretch the rules. It aint cheatin until you are caught. My team has managed to build a car within the rules, mind you, no chance of winning, but we have a hell of a lot of fun.
I would never be able to enjoy a race, winning or not, if I knew my car was a cheater. I guess it comes down to this: Morals, some people got em, and some people are so insecure they think they have to cheat to give themselves a chance.
That didn't come out nearly as clever and cutting as it sounded in my head.
cpmskinny wrote:troubleonwheels wrote:QFT. Not everyone sees Lemons that way, many see it as 'how far can I stretch the rules'.
Ain't that what Lemons is all about? How good of a story you can come up with to get your cheatin' ass car in the race with no penalty laps?
If there is a race series, there will always be people who will stretch the rules. It aint cheatin until you are caught. My team has managed to build a car within the rules, mind you, no chance of winning, but we have a hell of a lot of fun.
I would never be able to enjoy a race, winning or not, if I knew my car was a cheater. I guess it comes down to this: Morals, some people got em, and some people are so insecure they think they have to cheat to give themselves a chance.
That didn't come out nearly as clever and cutting as it sounded in my head.
Point taken, you seem to share the same values that my team and I share. It is all about the competition while keeping within the rules which would make the victory that much sweeter. But, you said morals...does anyone really competing in Lemons have morals or standards? You have seen some of the themes lately, right?
Well, that's why I like ChumpCar so much. It's about the vehicles and the race, and most importantly the racers. I get the feeling they'll be handing out more penalty laps, and some claiming will occur. This thread was about chumpcar, right? Where is their website and applications, anyway?!? The Portland race is only like 11 weeks away, lets get that ball rolling!
I believe the website should be operable NLT the beginning of next week. I am looking forward to having the opportunity to race more than twice a year without having to travel that far.
I still see the big issue being the residual value. To make it practicle to run both series you need the residual value to transfer between both series or you will need a car for each series just to keep yourself from accidentally cheating by losing track of what parts are ok for which series. That and actually I didn't see a rule in Chump for residual value. If you don't have someway of legal within the rules to swap parts between races it will drive the price of racing up. I'm not sure how many races you will be able to run on a car if the only parts you can get are for the brakes and exhaust.
Bob,
I agree with you and I haven't seen or heard a clear answer.
Will Chump honor a Lemons residual and vice versa? It sounds like we could be racing back and forth between the two. Chump followed by Lemons followed by Chump again or the other way around.
We have not worn out a set of brake pads yet, three races on the front and two on the rears. Both are still looking good but we run race pads on all 4 corners now.
Clutches, transmissions and engine stuff is another story. Our weakest link seems to be the clutch and transmission.
To troubleonwheels,
It does look like Chump is more about the cars and racing. A lot of participants in Lemons seem to be that way too.
The Peanut Gallery (JAFO's) on the other hand reads the coverage on the events and gets a different impression. Jonny mocks the race saying who cares who the winner is. You get $1500 and it's in nickels. In SCCA and NASA most guys race for nothing more than points and maybe a ribbon or trophy.
Jonny would like to see a race of art cars. It would be like watching a merry-go-round. Granted, an old crappy one that is likely to stop for repairs a lot. It would be cool for a while then I think it would get old. Riding a merry-go-round would be interesting for a while too but it would be old well before the 6 hour mark.
The cars I see at the races here in Houston and New Orleans are getting faster and more reliable. People/teams realize they can still build a decent car an stay within the rules.
Crap can racing has the opportunity to cost less per hour than SCCA or NASA if your car actually runs most of the time. In our first race, a lot of cars died quick and early, like 5 during the initial yellow lapping. That makes the cost per hour pretty high and it sucks if guys don't get a chance to drive.
I believe everyone wants to do well and would like to win. Teams are coming better prepared. The speeds and levels of competition are increasing while the themes are often times decreasing.
Safety requirements are also increasing as well. Safety wise, we are on the door step of SCCA & NASA. As far as I am concerned we are DOM tubing away. Unfortunately, the increased safety requirements also increase the cost while narrowing the differences in safety and build cost between a Crap Can and SCCA car.
Chump seems to have taken a more serious look at the race aspect of Crap Cans. It offers more rewards for doing well, 1st, 2nd and 3rd place along with creative and challenging performance mods.
I haven't read all the new revised rules, I think they are more favorable now but the residual system has not been resolved yet.
SCCA and NASA have similar safety requirements like Lemons to Chump but SCCA does not want to see NASA stickers on cars at their events. Not sure about SCCA stickers at NASA yet they are required. They cater to similar markets but do not necessarily play nice together all the time.
Hopefully Lemons and Chump will respect one another. Chump is competing with Lemons for the market created by Lemons. So they may take it in stride or not. We will just have to see.
actually I have one more question, I understand the costume award, but engineering, is that the index, banned dangerous racing tech, or a merge of the two.
Also why no love for the midwest(actaully I know its lack of tracks, and hard to book time on the few that exist)
Jonny would like to see a race of art cars. It would be like watching a merry-go-round. Granted, an old crappy one that is likely to stop for repairs a lot. It would be cool for a while then I think it would get old. Riding a merry-go-round would be interesting for a while too but it would be old well before the 6 hour mark.
I think there's not much you can do about this. If there are more people that want to race than slots for them to race, then you have to select based on some factor. Most racing events make it by price: if there's enough demand, then you can raise registration fees and make more money for your series. Obviously that can't work for a low-cost series, so they have to choose based on something else.
Both Lemons and ChumpCar select based on themes and engineering. You're going to see the same trend towards art cars and old/crappy cars in Chump as you will in Lemons, because that is what gets you in the race.
This trend has been controlled so far by the expansion of the series: they have expanded supply of grid slots about as fast as the # of race teams expands, thus keeping the "theme/age/interestingness price" low. But imagine if Lemons stayed at 10 races forever: the 'cost' to get in each race would massively increase as everyone competed to have the best theme, or crappiest car, or best pit BBQ, or best dangerous banned technology.
Basically, so long as the monetary price of registration is artifically constrained by the fact these are budget racing series, you're going to see the theme price and interestingness-of-car price go up*.
*Unless the rate of expansion of both series keeps up with team expansion, which is also a possibility.
I think there's not much you can do about this. If there are more people that want to race than slots for them to race, then you have to select based on some factor. Most racing events make it by price: if there's enough demand, then you can raise registration fees and make more money for your series. Obviously that can't work for a low-cost series, so they have to choose based on something else.
Both Lemons and ChumpCar select based on themes and engineering. You're going to see the same trend towards art cars and old/crappy cars in Chump as you will in Lemons, because that is what gets you in the race.
Actually, for most affordable racing, like SCCA National Solo, it's based on time of entry. They publish when registration is going to open and the first X teams who register, get in. When it fills up, it fills up.
Understandably, since Lemons wants a certain type of car in thier event, they choose what cars/teams they want. That does not mean that ChumpCar has to do it that way too. They could do it by time of entry - there are plenty of racing registration websites out there that could be used to help with registration. Most are also pay at time of registration - I think that would help with the dropout rates. I mean if you have to pony up $1000 at the time of registration, you wouldn't have 30-50 extra teams registering, possibily getting accepted, and then having to bail when it comes time to pay up.
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