The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Tech → Cage... 2 inch rule... to the pad or the hard tube?
about the 2 inch clear of the cage rule... is it to the Cage padding or the hard tube? our 6'3" drivers position is closest... 2.25-2.5" to the hard tube with things tacked in place... wondering if I need to change it... cause with padding it's less than 2" Thanks
To the tube.
Thank you
I posed this question quite some time ago and I never got a wink or a nod from the Evil Genius.
John?
KT
And to rehash that same thread, is it measured from the outside or inside of the tubing (aka, keep your head from hitting the tubing or dragging on the ground in case of a roll over)
I posed this question quite some time ago and I never got a wink or a nod from the Evil Genius)
This guy.... http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?id=7631
And to rehash that same thread, is it measured from the outside or inside of the tubing (aka, keep your head from hitting the tubing or dragging on the ground in case of a roll over)
The rule is
"On all sides, all drivers' helmeted heads must be at least two inches inside the area enclosed by the cage"
This says that the drivers helmet must be 2" from a plane defined by the outer surface of the roll cage. So think of the car upside down and resting on the cage, the drivers helmet should be two inches away from the ground (the outside of the cage), thus inside.
This does not say the drivers helmet must be 2" FROM the roll cage. The rule does not specify a clearance to the cage, but you probably want some clearance.
I agree with what you are saying but would love to hear it from an official. Maby John can chime in.
I just heard from John on this.
It's two inches from the helmet to the closest steel of the cage.
Padding is not part of the equation.
KT
So thats not to the top of the bar its to the bottom. Thanks for the clarification.
We really need a definitive ruling on this. If it's to the closest part as stated above, we will likely need to buy a different seat as well as rework the floor and the harness bar on the cage. Our current Sparco FIA seat won't go much lower as it crashes between the tunnel and door sill. If we only have to be 2" from the outer plane as the way mackwagon interprets it above, we only need to find thinner foam for the seat cushion. The difference between those two mods will be near $1000 as the floor and cage fab work will have to be hired out besides the need for a new seat. 
I like a comment that was made a couple of weeks ago, I don't remember if it was here or just in my mind. "If you need to be 2" away from the tubing put 2" of padding around the tube so there is no way you can get closer than the minimum clearance". As Trekkor quoted John as saying "Padding is not part of the equation"
We a have to move our seat.
This new rule is going to catch a lot of racers off guard in tech or it will not be enforced.
As you know, only one person is required to be with the car in tech.
Maybe the short driver should go...
I wonder if the tech guy at track entry will be checking cage clearance for each driver along with helmet visors and belt tightness.
KT
I don't think it is the clearance from the side of the helmet to the cage that is going to be a big problem but the distance from the top of the helmet to the imaginary line above that will be a problem.
That's not what the rule says.
It's helmet to steel.
I need to move my seat.
KT
The rule is.....
On all sides,
all drivers’ helmeted heads must be at least two inches inside the area enclosed by the cage.
The enclosed area includes the area above the drivers helmet.
We're moving our seat to get it lower, and will add cushions for the shorter drivers.
If you have to lower your seat, be careful to also keep an eye on the seat/harness-bar angle so you don't end up with the seat too low.
I just heard from John on this.
It's two inches from the helmet to the closest steel of the cage.
Padding is not part of the equation.KT
I wanted to update this thread after I've heard from the 24 HoL staff.
Contrary to my previous interpretation, Trekkor has it correct.
The right interpretation is 2" from the helmet to the roll cage. This is keeping the helmet 2" from anything hard, like the roll bars.
But you should also keep the helmet 2" inside the cage outer plane. So think of the car upside down, the roof will be at the roll cage and you want the helmet 2" inside of that also. again 2" from anything hard, like the ground/road.
For seats and drivers that are close to the left side upper bar, that will be the major problem. For tall drivers the upper left bar and the outer plane of the cage will both be a problem. I can see a lot of seats moving toward the center of the car and down, or roll cages moving out toward the top of the drivers door. But don't forget about the rear of the main upper hoop, behind the drivers head. Check that distance also.
We ended up having to mount our seat in a bit of a "gangsta's lean" to keep our head away from the cage on the left upper part. Worked great, and reduced the distance to the shifter.
Funny tidbit, not a single one of my teamates even knew it was leaning, they all ran the car for full stints...
trekkor wrote:I just heard from John on this.
It's two inches from the helmet to the closest steel of the cage.
Padding is not part of the equation.KT
I wanted to update this thread after I've heard from the 24 HoL staff.
Contrary to my previous interpretation, Trekkor has it correct.
The right interpretation is 2" from the helmet to the roll cage. This is keeping the helmet 2" from anything hard, like the roll bars.
But you should also keep the helmet 2" inside the cage outer plane. So think of the car upside down, the roof will be at the roll cage and you want the helmet 2" inside of that also. again 2" from anything hard, like the ground/road.
For seats and drivers that are close to the left side upper bar, that will be the major problem. For tall drivers the upper left bar and the outer plane of the cage will both be a problem. I can see a lot of seats moving toward the center of the car and down, or roll cages moving out toward the top of the drivers door. But don't forget about the rear of the main upper hoop, behind the drivers head. Check that distance also.
Thanks for clearing this up once and for all. Unfortunately, we fall into the category of being really close to the upper left bar, but due to our very small car, the seat simply won't go in or down. It's already a very narrow Sparco seat and it's wedged between the tunnel and door sill. The lower it goes, the wider the tunnel and narrower the space for the seat. I have a rather bad back, so switching to a Kirkey style seat isn't an option. I'd be in major pain 10 minutes into a stint without the proper back and leg support.
I know this rule is there for our protection and I fully support it, but we simply cannot afford to buy a new seat, cut up the floor and lower the harness bar to keep the angle correct. We also have to enlarge the two diagonal stay spreader plates to meet the new rules. We will stick with CCWS this season with no changes and rework the car over next winter. We are missing out on GingerMan in July, but I might just buy a seat on another team and run it without my Z.
We really need a definitive ruling on this. If it's to the closest part as stated above, we will likely need to buy a different seat as well as rework the floor and the harness bar on the cage. Our current Sparco FIA seat won't go much lower as it crashes between the tunnel and door sill. If we only have to be 2" from the outer plane as the way mackwagon interprets it above, we only need to find thinner foam for the seat cushion. The difference between those two mods will be near $1000 as the floor and cage fab work will have to be hired out besides the need for a new seat.
we had this problem too. A BIG hammer to the floorpan made the room. I cut up a seat bracket and we mounted the rails straight to the floor. It dropped the seat about 4 inches (floor clearance plus losing the bracket height. And we retained the sliders, important because we have a 6" difference between drivers.
I'd like to see previously raced/teched cars get an exemption on this rule.
Many of us built to the previous rules.
Requiring us to make major/expensive changes is really a hassle.
If I can't get the seat moved, it will mean rebuilding the cage.
That would mean cutting the driver's side 'a' pillar down bar in multiple places to remove it.
( at the spreader, lower door bar, upper door bar, dash bar, windshield car and gusset, main hoop and gusset )
Then there is the need for a new 'a' pillar tube that not only makes contact with all of the old cuts, but is bent upward/outboard to accommodate the 2" rule.
Obviously, I would have built the cage to the rules, as I did before they recently changed.
KT
I know this rule is there for our protection and I fully support it
I am not convinced that this rule is here for our protection. The 2" vertical rule to the outer plan of the cage (aka broomstick rule) is not an uncommon one, but the 2" lateral rule to a padded roll cage simultaneously seems like an insurance fearing overreaction. What seating position do we measure that in? With the driver sitting in the middle of the seat, or tilting the head over as far as he can towards the bar?
I too would like to see previously raced cars get grandfathered in at the very least. I don't see how we'll comply laterally (even with dropping the seat to the floorboards) *and* have the cage tubes be continuous pieces like the rules call for, without replacing the cage!
Jeff; we'll have to meet up. if for nothing else to check out each other's stuff. we have a big car with a fat man kirkey and i hear a lot of people say their kirkeys are bad but seriously, i have back problems caused by a leg descrepency, and once I'm in tight i have zero comfort issues, to the degree that I've driven this car to and from nelson ledges, and gingerman. not only that, but I've done 3 back-to-back stints at nelson(i know, gentle track, but 3 stints[with fuel stops/checking myself every 1.75-2h] that still adds up to a LOT of seat time in one of these supposedly uncomfortable chairs). I'm wondering a) if this myth is largely perpetuated by people who DON'T buy a fitted pad, and b) if they raced in an ill-sized seat for them. They're available in a wide range of specific sizes versus something like a sparco or corbeau seat where you're either stuck with the normal or "wide" width. Mainly, just trying to help you out, as It'd be nice to see you this season tearin' it up!
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