Topic: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

Hi:
One suggestion that was recently made to me by some thunderbird enthusiasts is to consider a cooler thermostat (170 or 180) vs the default one (I'm guessing 190 or 200).

I'm not 100% sold on this idea so I'd like to ask you Lemons veterans.

* From a cold engine, the TSTAT is closed so allow the coolant to heat up.
* Using a colder tstat (180) vs default, the t-stat will open up sooner and allow the engine run cooler earlier (at least until the coolant rises to the temp where the normal T-Stat pops open).

* However, on the track (esp a Lemons endurance race which will have the car running for a longer time vs a drag race), the engine is going to be constantly trying to DUMP excess heat INTO the cooling system. I believe that at some point on the track, the tstat (either temp version) will pop open and stay open for the duration of the driving session.

A colder t-stat isn't going to help me dump heat out of the coolant system like a secondary radiator (or tertiary, if you count my heater core I plan to use).

Q: Do you really believe that within a normal temp tstat operating under these conditions, the tstat will oscillate between being open and closed? If so, I'll look into seeing if we have the budget for a colder t-stat.

If not, I may be better off trying to rig up a tertiary roof radiator with my remaining pennies.

What say you Lemons veterans? Save my pennies or does this really help? Yes, I know they are cheap but I'm trying to save pennies for when we really need them.

-g

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
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Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

fwiw I run a colder tstat (75C vs 87C) and fan/fan clutch delete in my DD/track days car.  40min+ sessions and no problems with overheating.  sitting in summer 100 degree stop and go traffic- no overheating either.

Now happily part of Speedycop.

formerly:
Ziegel Scheißhaus Racing & ReVolvolution Racing

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

Just cut the center out of the thermostat and reinstall the outer ring. This will slow the coolant down enough for good heat transfer to take place, but it will also prevent any stuck thermostat issues. It will take a few minutes longer for your car to warm up, but if it's not anyone's daily driver, who cares?

There are some people who will tell you to throw away the thermostat altogether, but on a few cars this will cause overheating. I don't know about your 'bird.

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

We had nothing but overheating problems in the celica for the first few races.  We tried colder, gutted, cutting the spring, wedging it open, etc.  I ended up drilling a 1/4 in hole in the center part of a stock one, and that helped, but the stock radiator would still allow it to overheat.  After we finally wedged a larger radiator in it, all is finally well, and it ran the last event perfect.

Bloomington, IN
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Toothless Racing Deadbeats #110 2011 Summit Point (61st) Currently being rebuilt into the new car!

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

You definitely don't want to remove the whole thing but taking the center out is OK. Even better would be to find a way to stick it open so you would maintain the right flow balance of the cooling system.

On most engines the thermostat is a calculated orifice that splits the output from the water pump between the block and the radiator. Taking it out completely upsets this balance and as Erik states will cause the engine to overheat. Taking out the center might make it run a little warmer at the end farthest from the pump.

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

Thermostats don't just regulate heat, they raise pressure around the cylinders/head through restriction. If you drop that pressure by removing the t-stat (or even messing with it), and you lower the heat carrying capacity of the water which the general drop in temperatures doesn't even begin to compensate for. Unless you have a BS in fluid dynamics, thermodynamics, materials engineering, and probably a liberal arts degree from a "reputable" online university, you probably don't know better than an engine that has a cooling system that is simple, reliable, durable, and even sometimes handles endurance racing. You're running in the conditions that might be unintentional overbuilding on the part of the manufacturer, so you sometimes do have to enhance the capacity and flow of the engine, but messing with the single most important control aspect is just plain stupid.

If it didn't handle the heat stock, you probably need to run a lower temp thermostat and a larger radiator. Leave the coolant bypasses in, leave the heater core in, install and oil cooler and a eBay radiator.

Team Dai Hard Home Page

1989 Daihatsu Charade

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

We went to a colder one but that was because we were switching to a fail open style anyway.


Although when it comes down to it the oil cooler we added did drop the engine temps so if your worried about engine temps and haven't done that, its something you should consider.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
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Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

I have a stock oil cooler and a eBay all-aluminum radiator that barely fits and couldn't even break 170F (water outlet pipe on the head so that was the max engine temp) with a 195F thermostat @ Buttonwillow Arse Freeze , but the coil temp was 190F solid all race because of the cooler and its own thermostat control. I'm not a big fan of the cooling systems with the thermostat after the radiator, overcooling is a big problem with those.

Making 120hp through a cooling system designed for 80hp and an automatic, probably doubled the fluid capacity of the radiator.

Team Dai Hard Home Page

1989 Daihatsu Charade

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

We run without a thermostat at all - simply as a reliability measure. A stuck (closed) thermostat could be a race ended.

That being said - the temperature at which the stat opens is, for us, fairly insignificant. With a properly operating cooling system, standard stat would be fine. Remember, you should be seeing head temps of about 190 (250 at the plugs). That's the right number to run (colder is not necessarylilly better, btw)  As long at the stat (in-head type) opens at less than that - it's gonna just stay open.

"Chief Idiot" - Italian Stallions Rotary X1/9
Class Win (Bad) / IOE Win (Guzzi Fiat 600) / We Got Screwed / GRM Most from Least

10 (edited by m610 2011-01-15 01:08 PM)

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

We ran with a thermostat and overheated.

We took it out and overheated.

We put a drilled out thermostat back in and overheated.

We put an oil cooler in and the motor still overheated.

The fan belt and water pump are good.

We're putting in a Sorocco radiator and BMW surge tank to see if that helps.

I just remembered that years ago some old-timers at the track were telling me how back in the 60's sports cars would overheat just driving up I-5 to get to the track. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised that our '69 Opel overheats during a race.

If this radiator can do the job we might actually be able to stay on the throttle long enough to let us catch up with Spank's Mini.

11 (edited by djcommie 2011-01-15 02:16 PM)

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

Unless you're making much more power than stock, I think there is a problem. Stock hardware is usually quite overbuilt to make up for bad maintenance and severe duty (racing falls under this). I've had a boost gauge connected to the cooling system before to watch the pressures, and dual water temp gauges (one at head one at radiator outlet), and it certainly helps to see how temperature and pressure are inter-related.

An oil cooler would make a HUGE diference in water temps, sounds like you either have a bypass problem or something making it flow too fast/slow, or not enough/too much pressure.

There are thermostats that have dual circuits (most Japanese cars are like this), where a second little theromstat plate is at the base of the big thermostat. With that open, it would circulate water back through the block/head without moving the water to the radiator.

cmice wrote:

We run without a thermostat at all - simply as a reliability measure. A stuck (closed) thermostat could be a race ended.

So you don't mind wearing your engine much more, using more fuel, or making your cooling system not even work properly in the first place, all because you think that it might fail? Its just plain dumb and advised against in just about every racing book I've read.


edit: here's the text from Modern Engine Tuning, by A. Graham Bell (haha)
http://daihatsu-fans.org/hosted/cooling-system.png

Team Dai Hard Home Page

1989 Daihatsu Charade

12 (edited by cmice 2011-01-15 04:37 PM)

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

djcommie wrote:

So you don't mind wearing your engine much more, using more fuel, or making your cooling system not even work properly in the first place, all because you think that it might fail? Its just plain dumb and advised against in just about every racing book I've read.

No, we are not dumb - because we don't run the engine too cold - which is what would cause the problems you mention.  I have Mr Bell's book, and have read it many times.

Our cooling system works properly, and taking the t-stat out had virtually no effect on the average temperature of the engine.  We've run ambients up to 112def F, and it all works fine for us.

We took class win, 100degF heat, without it - and have done top 20 overall finishes in all races but one.

So, please re-think jackass comments like this - read less, DO more.

Chris

"Chief Idiot" - Italian Stallions Rotary X1/9
Class Win (Bad) / IOE Win (Guzzi Fiat 600) / We Got Screwed / GRM Most from Least

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

Our motor is stock, but it is old and we certainly didn't have any problems with the engine running cold. We let it warm up before racing it, which didn't take long, so no problem with all that extra wear-tear.

The oil cooler did not decrease engine temperatures that we could tell, and we ran BW all day a 210-220F (water) and oil temps were about the same. I'm glad it was December.

On the freeway the water temps hold steady at about 150F in cool weather, such as near Monterey, and over 180F in warmer weather, near Sacramento, on the same day/trip, at the same speed, which happens to be near our top speed at a race except on longer straights, 80 mph. So I think there is something about a '69 that never came with A/C having a marginal cooling system. I remember back in the 80's that is was common for stock street cars to overheat on HWY-17 over the mountain to get to Santa Cruz.

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

cut the center out and put it back in and replace the radiator, no way it should overheat....if it does look else where...

If its not broke fix it till it is...

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

we put a transmission cooler on our setup and now I actually fear we may have taken too much heat out of the system as it seems like it'll barely hit 180F even in the heat like Summit. My call would be, that if you're concerned about cooling; replace the water pump, hoses, and get a "fail-open" t-stat. between those two you shouldn't be having a cooling issue unless there's a head problem.

16

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

Serj wrote:

we put a transmission cooler on our setup and now I actually fear we may have taken too much heat out of the system as it seems like it'll barely hit 180F even in the heat like Summit. My call would be, that if you're concerned about cooling; replace the water pump, hoses, and get a "fail-open" t-stat. between those two you shouldn't be having a cooling issue unless there's a head problem.

Thats what we did for a cooler, and we were having a hard time getting the temp above 180 or so until we duct taped some of the opening up.  We only raced it at the autobahn in October so not really ready to say we don't need it for warm weather yet.  Might just be a gm thing.  We had found some random things on this car that seem a bit over-engineered for what the car was originally built for.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
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Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

m610 wrote:

We ran with a thermostat and overheated.

We took it out and overheated.

We put a drilled out thermostat back in and overheated.

We put an oil cooler in and the motor still overheated.

The fan belt and water pump are good.

We're putting in a Sorocco radiator and BMW surge tank to see if that helps.

I just remembered that years ago some old-timers at the track were telling me how back in the 60's sports cars would overheat just driving up I-5 to get to the track. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised that our '69 Opel overheats during a race.

If this radiator can do the job we might actually be able to stay on the throttle long enough to let us catch up with Spank's Mini.

Overheated is such a vague term.....  Just like I say in the video "it was over 220F..but I didn't let it get to 230F".....so I did a good job right?

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

Somehow we got through Arse-Sweat OK even after hitting those temperatures, boiling water, and doing what we could to keep it cool after wards.

At Arse-Freeze it was much cooler and we were running 220F all day, 210F if we backed off a bit. I think I've heard that ours was the first Opel to finish a race, which we've done twice now, and that all the other Opels dropped out because of temperature problems. But I've also also heard they were not running the stock I4 motors, but V6's.

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

From a tuner aspect, running a colder range thermo would require you to run colder range spark plugs and be tuned to take advantage of it... just simply sayin...

____________________________________
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Speedycop and the Gang of Outlaws Official Ten+ Time Loser
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Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

you may be overturning the waterpump causing a cavatation problem, these cars werent designed to be held at high RPM all day long.

2010, 26th @ CMP, 2011, 10th & 5th at CMP, 2012? (MIA), 2013 Spring CMP, 53rd, 2013 Fall CMP 44th, 2014 Barber 14th, 2014 CMP 46th, 2015 CMP 57th, 2015 CMP 80th, 2016 CMP 16th, 3rd in B class, Winner Judges choice, and First car under 2.0 liter Alex's lemon aide stand winner. 2017 WRL, Road Atlanta 43rd, 2017 NCM 9th O/A , 1st in B class, 2018 CMP 13th O/A 3rd in Class B

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

cmice wrote:
djcommie wrote:

So you don't mind wearing your engine much more, using more fuel, or making your cooling system not even work properly in the first place, all because you think that it might fail? Its just plain dumb and advised against in just about every racing book I've read.

No, we are not dumb - because we don't run the engine too cold - which is what would cause the problems you mention.  I have Mr Bell's book, and have read it many times.

Our cooling system works properly, and taking the t-stat out had virtually no effect on the average temperature of the engine.  We've run ambients up to 112def F, and it all works fine for us.

We took class win, 100degF heat, without it - and have done top 20 overall finishes in all races but one.

So, please re-think jackass comments like this - read less, DO more.

Chris

I also read modern engine tuning, but then i read an FAQ in a PDF  by Davis, Craig a maker of very high quality electric water pumps for race applications

Q- Is the idea that coolant can pass too quickly through a
radiator true?

A- The “pump too fast lose less heat” notion is very popular and
many experienced mechanics are very attached to it but ... it
is a fallacy. Davies, Craig has been carrying out research and
development for over a decade on a number of projects and has
never been able to pump genuine liquid coolant faster and lose
less heat. In all car engines, when the mechanical pump reaches
cavitation speed, coolant turns into a gaseous state which is
compressible (liquid is not), and the real flow rate of liquid coolant
drops even though the mechanical pump has a higher rpm, and
so heat loss drops. The engine temperature then rises. And it only
seems like the flow rate is too fast, and the coolant is spending
too little time in the radiator to lose its heat etc.

Flying Rat Motorsports- Turbo Taxi, RIP

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

A lot of thermostats have a built in bypass blocking plate. Its a plate and spring hanging off the end. If you have this style don't just remove the tstat, it will overheat.

I think one of the big overheating issues when pushing vehicles is not ducting the radiator to the front end to keep the hot air and the fresh incoming air separate. Sheet metal or carefully with spray foam air guides can help keep the hot air from looping around the radiator and back through the radiator.

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

I think radiator shrouds are just as important as having the proper thermostat. Having a shroud that seals up nicely and forces the air through the radiator is important. Remember air is lazy just like your asshole brother in law and will go wherever it's easiest.

I think I saw someone mention on here before that they had good luck with garden edging installed below the front bumper as a simple air dam. It keeps the air from going under the car instead of through the radiator.

Re: Q: Colder thermostat worth the budget funds?

What is a thermostat?