Topic: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

Hi:
I'm prepping my 95 Thunderbird LX 3.8L for the 24 hours of Lemons and after getting the SS lines and PBR calipers installed on the car and working without any issues, one of my next projects is to install front brake ducts.

My front bumper has two gaps that are in the right position for the brake intake ducts so now I'm just thinking about how to direct the air towards the brakes themselves.

I've seen two DIYs on such a project and both suggest
a) using high temp silicone flex ducting (a little more pricey)
b) attaching said ducting to the dust shields to force air into the side of the rotors.

On the tbird, the dust shields ARE removable but attached to the car w/ 3 rivets so reattaching them to the car if I pull them off isn't going to be super easy. The Ford service manual says rather ominously "do not bend or adjust the dust shields" for some reason.

A friend of mine suggested just removing the dust shields altogether and running cheaper plastic drainage or aluminum dryer vent ducting and just ziptieing it so that the air is directed at the discs but perhaps far enough away to not be affected by the excess heat the rotors may be dissipating under track conditions.

Q: Is this a bad idea?

Do I need the dust shields for anything besides dust protection (which I don't care about anyway)?

I did search and the only two threads that mentioned dust shields had the following comments
- one dude with an e30 just pulled them off the front and "bent them open" on the rears. Open where?
- in a second thread another guy was asking about brake backing plates on drum brakes and someone replied that the dust shields (for disc brakes) have an added bonus of protecting from rocks on offroad excursions. Considering we are an all rookie team, this is a possibility...

Thanks in advance for your advice.
-g

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
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Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

Brake ducts are usually problematic in $500 car endurance races, I've seen them do more harm than good.   Remove the backing shields if they don't have some kind of vent/scoop, use good brake parts and make sure there is air getting into the wheel well.   That doesn't mean adding ducts and tubing, just let the air get in there...   

-John

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'

3 (edited by Buzz Killington 2011-02-24 05:06 PM)

Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

brake ducting is essential, and the bigger the ducts (and the closer you run them to the rotors -- you may need to run it around/through suspension parts) the better off you'll be.  this will often eliminate the need to upgrade your pads or fluid.

mike - Schumacher Taxi Service
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Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

A few strategic cuts in the stock body work will allow quite a bit of air to get to them.

Good pads and fresh high boil fluid should be the focus.


KT

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Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

No, you don't need them, as said, unless they have air scoops which I doubt! I routinely remove them.

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Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

gunn wrote:

Hi:
I'm prepping my 95 Thunderbird LX 3.8L for the 24 hours of Lemons

I'm really glad you mentioned that, otherwise we might have thought you were prepping it for NASCAR or Baja.

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Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

psh, what do you need brakes for? you need more powaaaaa!

*ignore everything i ever said everywhere it's universally bad advice*

Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

Route the cooling ducts to your head gaskets instead.

The Homer: Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball.

Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

Very good question and it's interesting that your first two responses are opposite of one another.

You need cooling if you are using your brakes hard. The best way around the race track is the smooth way, which generally means not overbraking or late braking, both of which will require you to maximize cooling.

Really, you're not going to win. So it's ok to coast into the turns, don't go full throttle or try to get to top speed only to have to jam on brakes, etc.

Since your car is not exactly light, you will want to use higher temp fluid, quality pads, and look to remove any shrouding that could limit the cheap airflow options. Take off the shrouds if you feel you need to to gain access for later repairs or whatever. Rocks can get trapped behind the shrouds almost as easily as the shrouds deflect rocks in offroad excursions.

Adding stuff is creating situations where stuff can break and fall off (which is what EvilGenius is saying)

Something else to consider: Often times if you leave the car crappy / close to stock, people will more often respect that it may have sensible limits. Mod the crap out of, like running ducting to the brakes (that you don't even know whether or not they work!) and people will drive the crap out of it thinking, "Hey, I've got cooling ducts-- I can late brake all day now!"

10 (edited by gunn 2011-02-25 10:46 AM)

Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

I've already replaced the brake lines with SS ones, upgraded the single pistol calipers with bigger dual-pot "PBR" calipers from a Mustang, replaced the rusty rotors with  Brembo OEM rotors, replaced the fluid with quality ATE Super Blue, and currently have a set of Wagner Severe Duty Fleet Pads (at the recommendation of some folks here who have raced heavy crown vics). We're considering Porterfield R4-e Pads for the race but these will do for puttering around now while we fix up the car (it's still street legal).

After removing the fender liners and dust shields aside, there's a pretty straight shot from the holes in the lower bumper (I believe for foglights) to the front rotors (well, except for the tire that will be in the way).

Personally, I'm not 100% sold on brake ducts but we'll definitely ditch the dust shields play with the spare aluminum flex ducting I found in my basement (probably from the old clothes dryer exhaust) to see if there's room down there to fit them without fuss.

I am leaning toward's John's recommendation of KISS.
-g

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
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Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

Good luck w/ the Wagners, I think those (or something like those) lasted about 30 minutes at G man w/ a monte carlo/lumina.  Rotors came off in pieces w/ pistons welded to them.  I think the guy driving was an ASA racer, so he may have been harder on the pads than you guys would be.

Get some race pads.

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Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

We took ours of a while ago, run motul rbf 600 fluid, stock rotors, and napa adaptive ceramic pads.  Have been very happy with that set up.  We got 3 races out of the first set of pads, but seem to be getting about 1 race out of the fronts, and 2 out of the rears as we have gotten faster.

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13 (edited by Buzz Killington 2011-02-25 07:29 AM)

Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

gunn wrote:

We're considering Porterfield R4-e Pads for the race but these will do for puttering around now while we fix up the car (it's still street legal).

After removing the fenders and dust shields aside, there's a pretty straight shot from the holes in the lower bumper (I believe for foglights) to the front rotors (well, except for the tire that will be in the way).

you're putting those fenders back on, right?

get the porterfields...save yourself a certain headache later.

Spank wrote:

Very good question and it's interesting that your first two responses are opposite of one another.

what's more interesting is that only one of them is serious.  wink

mike - Schumacher Taxi Service
12+-time loser
"Winner" - We Got Screwed, NJMP '11

14 (edited by gunn 2011-02-25 10:49 AM)

Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

Buzz Killington wrote:
gunn wrote:

We're considering Porterfield R4-e Pads for the race but these will do for puttering around now while we fix up the car (it's still street legal).

After removing the fender LINERS and dust shields aside, there's a pretty straight shot from the holes in the lower bumper (I believe for foglights) to the front rotors (well, except for the tire that will be in the way).

you're putting those fenders back on, right?

get the porterfields...save yourself a certain headache later.

Spank wrote:

Very good question and it's interesting that your first two responses are opposite of one another.

what's more interesting is that only one of them is serious.  wink

Sorry. Fender LINERS. We're not prepping for the Baja 1000.

... and thanks for your clarification. The first time I read your post, I was actually thinking that you may have been serious. I was definitely leaning towards John's recommendation though.

-g

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
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Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

smile  to be fair, i didn't say which of those was the serious post.

i'm very rarely serious on this board, with the notable exception of my belief that forced induction will never negatively affect reliability.

mike - Schumacher Taxi Service
12+-time loser
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Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

Honestly, if you have brake overheating problems, ducting generally won't solve them.  It certainly did jack squat on the Craptation.  You have to push a LOT of air to effectively cool brakes.  When you're going 170 mph on the straights, you push a lot of air.  At 70, not so much.  Put some good pads on that have high heat tolerance and don't overdrive the car.

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Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

Actually ducting does help, remove the dust shields, use racing pads, good solid rotors (like Brembo's), DOT 4-5 fluid and you should be good.

Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

better brake  fluid   will  do more   than   100 lbs of   dryer duct  and   platic  ties

Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

Aaack!  No DOT 5!  Stay away!!!  Run away!!!

I should (and will) clarify.  Our car as it came from the P/O had been "converted" to DOT 5.  Supposedly he did everything the "right" way- took it all apart, cleaned every caliper and wheel cylinder and the master, and refilled with DOT 5.  The problem is, DOT 5 differs from DOT 4 in one very prominent way:  DOT 4 absorbs water, DOT treats it like salad dressing.  So, if you have a completely tight, impenetrable, water-proff brake system, that no moisture will ever ever ever get into, and you change brake fluid every day, then DOT 5 will probably work for you.  For the rest of us, DOT 4 is a much safer bet.

Why?  If water gets into your DOT 4 system, it will mix with the DOT 4 and lower the boiling point of the brake fluid.  How much it lowers the boiling point depends on how much water is in there- pure DOT 4 boils around 400F, water at 212, so if your system has 5% water in it the BP might drop down to 380-ish (not doing math, just guessing).  But if you have DOT 5, the BP of the DOT 5 will be 450F (ish) and ANY water that gets trapped inside will still boil at (yep) 212.  So, when the brake fluid hits 212F, it'll be fine, but that water will be all like "Man, I feel like becoming a gas now!"  Granted, if your brake system is under pressure, that temp will increase, but when you're not on the brakes, the internal pressure should be roughly atmospheric. So now, that water boils.  And what happens when water boils?  It EXPANDS.  When shi....stuff expands, it looks for the point of least resistance to expand to.  This might be (if you're lucky) out the top of the master cylinder.  Or, if you're not so lucky, it could be a brake flex hose or caliper seal. 

Use DOT 4.

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Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

ATE Super Blue is pretty cheap at $20 per liter. It's better than Ford's Heavy Duty brake fluid, but far cheaper than the rest of the racing brake fluids.

Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

EriktheAwful wrote:

ATE Super Blue is pretty cheap at $20 per liter. It's better than Ford's Heavy Duty brake fluid, but far cheaper than the rest of the racing brake fluids.

Yup, my OCD self read every single tech thread here before I started modding the car.
This may be our first rodeo but we don't plan on being the clowns that get poked in the ass by the steer on our first go around here.

Here's our brake setup:
* PBR calipers up front / Tbird discs in back (stockers) + ABS
* SS lines from classic tube all the way around
* ATE Super Blue DOT4 fluid (>280C dry, >200C wet BP)
* Werner Severe Duty Fleet Pads for puttering around pre-race (plus backups)
* Considering Porterfield R4-e pads (carbon Kevlar compound recommended by Lemons veterans) for the race.
* Fender liners removed for more airflow from the front bumper holes

We'll go with the following suggestion:
* Dust shields removed
* NO ducting

Thanks again,
-g

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4

Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

I can't say I "Know", but 25 years of racing SCCA stuff, I've always just used fresh Castrol LMA which is cheap and worked dandy... Plan to do the same in the Lex....

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

23 (edited by djcommie 2011-02-27 10:24 AM)

Re: Q: Dust Shields for my front disc brakes. Do I need them?

Spinnetti on brakes that aren't 20 year old ignored OE hackjobs in a badly driven car in 16 hour races, most likely.

Superblue is cheap, Motul RBF600 is awesome (class winner on OE-style $15 Rockauto Semi metallic pads (okay they were Axxis Ultimates I liked the kangaroo on the box) and no brake cooling at Thunder Hill Arse Sweat 95deg ambient. Most of that wasn't badly driven, but I'm sure most people can comment that the Daihatsu wasn't slow.


Same rotors and Centric ceramic pads with Superblue would take the brakes out for half a lap at a time at Buttonwillow when it was 50F outside. We finished off the remainder of the pads from T-Hill, and still were having some issues with them. Whether that was higher overall speeds due to track, shorter braking zones, the worst fucking pads in the universe, etc, I can't say for sure.


LMA has a dry boiling point of 509F, so thats why its probably one of the more decent fluids available. LMA means "Low Moisture Activity," which doesnt really matter if you're changing the fluid every race. I changed mine each race day!

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