The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Newcomers → But... it's cheaper THIS way!!!
I've seen circle track cars get in that probably shouldn't have made it through BS lap free. I saw one win the BAD class at CMP. Even if you do get though, you'll miss the fun of car prep. That's an event in itself.
Waterboyrrh wrote:Just because it is "race ready" for their class does not mean that it passes safety for ours. If your serious about it then have them send you detailed pics pf the cage and verify that it fits within our guidelines. Bent coat hangers for a cage doesnt fly well.
Oh my! You should SEE this cage!!! It is a true work of art. I have seen the antics that can happen at 24hrsofLmns on Utube videos and if I were a passenger in this car while someone else was driving, I'd feel safe enough to fall asleep. Simply put, the cage is a masterpiece, the nicest I've ever seen in a production "street" car, and easily worth three times the asking price of the entire car. Part of the reason I want to use this car is that the cage is so much nicer than any off the shelf mail order that I could install mayself.
huf_arted wrote:Waterboyrrh wrote:Just because it is "race ready" for their class does not mean that it passes safety for ours. If your serious about it then have them send you detailed pics pf the cage and verify that it fits within our guidelines. Bent coat hangers for a cage doesnt fly well.
Oh my! You should SEE this cage!!! It is a true work of art. I have seen the antics that can happen at 24hrsofLmns on Utube videos and if I were a passenger in this car while someone else was driving, I'd feel safe enough to fall asleep. Simply put, the cage is a masterpiece, the nicest I've ever seen in a production "street" car, and easily worth three times the asking price of the entire car. Part of the reason I want to use this car is that the cage is so much nicer than any off the shelf mail order that I could install mayself.
Well jump on it and we will see you at the track!
It might be done really well just make sure it passes the rules
# 3.1: Rollbar and Structure: Professionally made full roll cage required. A poorly built, improperly mounted, or badly engineered rollcage can keep you from racing: Don't show up with crap! At minimum, cage must include: Full front and rear hoop, appropriately braced to each other along the roofline; two drivers-side door bars (X-design is acceptable); appropriate main-hoop backstays with no bends, located as close to 45 degrees from horizontal as practical; one main-hoop diagonal; appropriate spreader plates and gussets; complete 360-degree welds at all joints. Each major load-bearing member must be formed from its own single, continuous tube. Shoulder-harness bars strongly encouraged, and virtually necessary for proper shoulder-harness mounting in some applications (the attachment point of all shoulder harnesses must be between zero and 15 degrees lower than the seat-entry point); dash bars very strongly encouraged.
o 3.1.1: Rollbar Tubing and Padding: Minimum tubing size for cars weighing under 3000 pounds as raced is 1.50" x .120" or 1.75" x .095". Cars weighing over 3000 pounds as raced must use a minimum tubing size of 1.75" x .120". Properly-bent, racecar-grade and -quality tubing is mandatory: no stretched or crushed bends allowed. DOM mild steel is very strongly recommended over ERW (seamed) tubing.
be sure to pay attention to the tubing size, although the car should be under 3000 lbs so you should be ok with 1.50" x .120" or 1.75" x .095"
I am telling you on racingjunk.com you can get all kinds of race ready care with cages already good and in the car for under 1500. For the people that done want to have 3 grand in there car befor they get to the track and the people that are not able or have the stuff to make there own.
500 dollars.
500 dollars.
Very accurate and succinct, I don't know why there's so much trouble reading a rule that is so clearly spelled out (and specifically calls out the exact scenario being debated)
I think one reason Jay et al arranged the rules to discourage finding an ex-some-other-series car is because they are trying to encourage Lemons racers to find a crapheap and do the work themselves because it can be really fun, and the stress of doing a build is a good litmus test for how your team will get along under race stress.
Although I don't like the stress of worrying if a car will be ready as the deadline of a race gets near, I LOVE doing the dismantling work that goes into converting a street car into a race car. But then you have to put in a cage, which makes things expensive.
If not for the expense of the cage (and variations in tires etc.) I would have tossed our neon a while ago for something more... interesting.
trekkor wrote:Got 4:30'd and penalty laps, too.
In the end, SO WHAT!We had the best time EVER!!!
KT
Dude, Trekkor could be Rookie of the Year for that.
If we had a Rookie of the Year.
...I'd like to thank...
KT
trekkor wrote:Got 4:30'd ...
Can someone translate that into Old Fart for me, please?
Me too. And get the f*&% off my lawn.
Spare parts, including engines, aren't considered in the 500-buck limit. However, a "spare engine" that gets swapped in between the BS inspection and the start of the race will make us unhappy if it turns out to be some kinda race-prepped monster and/or the engine that went through the inspection isn't sufficiently broken (e.g., spewed all the exhaust valves out the tailpipe during practice on Friday afternoon) to warrant a swap. In other words, nobody will be driving a super-cheater through the Spare Engine Loophole.
We did this after 5 laps into the race, can I retroactively have some laps?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5HtbwhSTPg
If my math is correct, if the driver hit fuel cut in third then hit second at the same input shaft speed, the revs the engine reached was 11,052RPM. A piston speed of 5176f/m, 200f/m over F1 car maximums. With a 76mm bore and a 71mm stroke. With the other engine we would have ran, with a 16.2mm stroke increase (@ same bore)we would have gone nearly 6000f/m, more than enough to blow the pistons through the head.
A follow-up question: One car I'm considering has almost 200k miles on the original engine. It starts and doesn't rap or smoke, but who knows what will happen the first time it gets red lined.
just from personal experience its not a good idea to redline a tired motor if you want it to last install a cheapo rev limiter and set it to about 3/4 of "factory" redline it will keep all your drivers out of mechanical trouble and hopefully on the track longer instead of in the pits you can always turn it up if you run awhile and think its safe to run it harder
bob-e wrote:500 dollars.
Very accurate and succinct, I don't know why there's so much trouble reading a rule that is so clearly spelled out (and specifically calls out the exact scenario being debated)
Let me see if I can help you with your question.
A) You may spend up to $500 including the cage
B) You may spend up to $500 NOT including the cage
A and B appear contradictory, yet both are clearly indicated at different places in the rules.
Therefore, the answer to your question is quite simple: one place in the rules, the cage counts as part of the $500 total investment, while in another place, the cage does not count. When a rule that is "so clearly spelled out" in one place has an entirely different meaning and function in another place, that apparent contradiction can sometimes be frustrating and confusing to some people.
For instance, I am currently looking at car with a beautiful welded cage that was installed 11 months ago at a cost of $1800. The cage is amazing, and worth every penny. I can buy the entire car, including the $1800 welded cage, a racing seat, a current harness, 8 wheels, and 12 tires, for $1500, and maybe less. In other words, I could buy a car with all the safety equipment I need to run at Lemons for at least $2000 less than I could build the exact same car for myself. According to the rules, I definitely cannot enter the car at Lemons. The fact that the cage was not installed by either myself or the previous owner is not the difference. The difference is that the current owner paid someone else to install the cage, which appears to be entirely legal, and I would be buying a $500 car with an $1800 cage already installed, which the rules either discourage, or entirely prohibit, depending upon your particular interpretation. The car has never been to a Lemons, but the current owner of the car could enter the car in a Lemons without question and clearly be within both the letter and the spirit of the rules. Can I "legally" purchase and run the exact same car at Lemons having spent far LESS than the previous owner did? Probably not. Does that make any sense at all? Probably not.
Can I "legally" run the car at Lemons?
You can legally run ANY car in Lemons that passes tech.
So grow a pair and buy the car with the cage your are drooling over and figure out how to document the transaction.
You wanna grow a real pair, buy a POS and built it yourself.
Regarding the other guy running the car, he could get by with no penalties if he bought and prepped the car for under $500 outside of safety.
Aside from being "legal," your potential penalty situation will be left to the whims of the Judges. Nothing said in in the forum will give you absolute resolution, ask mole.
ask mole.
...or me.
KT
So just buy the car...
The safety stuff was 'free'.
What's the price of just the car??
...Or buy the safety equipment separately.
Physically removed and then reinstalled.
KT
JThw8 wrote:bob-e wrote:500 dollars.
Very accurate and succinct, I don't know why there's so much trouble reading a rule that is so clearly spelled out (and specifically calls out the exact scenario being debated)
Let me see if I can help you with your question.
A) You may spend up to $500 including the cage
B) You may spend up to $500 NOT including the cageA and B appear contradictory, yet both are clearly indicated at different places in the rules.
Therefore, the answer to your question is quite simple: one place in the rules, the cage counts as part of the $500 total investment, while in another place, the cage does not count. When a rule that is "so clearly spelled out" in one place has an entirely different meaning and function in another place, that apparent contradiction can sometimes be frustrating and confusing to some people.
Stop trying to creatively interpret the rules and this will become simple.
You may spend no more than $500 on the car. The cage when added does not count toward that $500 but that doesnt mean you can spend more for an already caged car.
# 4.1: Total Investment in Vehicle Can Not Exceed $500: Except for items described in Rules 4.2 and 4.3, the total spent to purchase and prepare any car may not exceed $500.
o 4.1.1: Lame-Ass Rationalizations: Cars that "should be" worth $500 don't count; cars that "were worth $500" before you spent another $2000 to fix them don't count; cars you've owned for 20 years and spent more than $500 on during that time don't count; "it would have been worth $500 if it didn't already have a cage" doesn't count. Five hundred dollars means five hundred frickin' dollars.
See section 4.1.1 where the example of the pre caged car is specifically used. Makes it pretty clear.
Hundreds of people before you have survived building a cage or having one built so I don't think you will change the world by constantly violating rule 2.4
JThw8, you're trying to explain the rules to me as if I don't understand. I understand, I get it, and it's completely clear, coherent, apparent, and even transparent to EVERYONE what the rules mean. Unfortunately, they don't get any more reasonable with repetition.
SOMETIMES THE CAGE IS INCLUDED IN THE $500 LIMIT, AND SOMETIMES IT'S NOT.
Now, since you quote Otter and Bluto at the bottom of every post, I think you ought to take a step back and really THINK about what Otter and Bluto are saying, because both Otter and Bluto are far more into breaking rules than quoting them. When you accuse me of "constantly violating rule 2.4" in the above post, you actually sound a lot like Dean Wormer. Maybe you should put me on double secret probation?
No you are constantly arguing a dead point, sounds liek a 2.4 violation to me.
The cage is separate from the $500 limit, that is clear, it is a piece of safety equipment and therefore not subject to the $500 limit. But it is also clear that you cannot buy a caged car for more than $500 because the car is only worth $500. It says it right there. Creative types will figure out how to purchase the car and the cage on separate transactions. Truly creative types would never start with a car that was ever considered race worthy enough to be found with a cage to begin with 
And that's what my quote is all about.
Whoa!!!! Make up your mind! And re-read your post before the last one! Now I'm not sure whether you are Dean Wormer, or Sybil.
No Im not being sybil, Im saying that by the letter of the law buying a caged car for more than the $500 is verboten. However people have fudged the rules and purchased the car and cage seperately and gotten away with it. What they haven't done is start a multiple page thread to point out the fact they are buying a pre built race car to draw undue attention and scrutiny on their car. Good luck in the BS inspection.
It's not something Id do. Nothing I consider Lemons worthy would have ever been race prepped previously.
Now relax, chill, go buy a pre built car if you want to, no skin off my nose either way. I'll take pride in what I build and be happy with it. You run what you bought and be happy with it. Either way everyone interprets things differently and they are all at the mercy of the BS judges to sort it out.....unless they have a free pass
By the way, I just watched a video in which a Maxima, a Volstang, and a 928 were dueling to the death at Thunderhill. Every other car in the video looked like commuter traffic. If those three finished the race, I'm pretty sure all three cars had more than the $500 limit into them. (Only possible exception being that Volstang.) One thing is for sure, no 20 y/o clapped-out 928 can be driven uber schnell for 12 hours without an awful lot of very costly Deutsch teile being fed to it first, ja?
WHO had a free pass???
http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?id=929
A note to everyone: What ever happens, PLEASE DON'T VOTE TO CRUSH THE WARTBURG. It deserves to live a long and happy 2nd life with its new 3.2 liter flat 6.
By the way, I just watched a video in which a Maxima, a Volstang, and a 928 were dueling to the death at Thunderhill. Every other car in the video looked like commuter traffic. If those three finished the race, I'm pretty sure all three cars had more than the $500 limit into them. (Only possible exception being that Volstang.) One thing is for sure, no 20 y/o clapped-out 928 can be driven uber schnell for 12 hours without an awful lot of very costly Deutsch teile being fed to it first, ja?
DPVOG, read some of the posts about that Maxima! While it was a good deal, they got penalties. The 928 broke and Wartburg will never get cursed.
I know this is supposed to be a flame free zone but you have stokes the fire enough, and I've been drinking enough at a Christmas party, that I think you've earned a swift direct discussion.
MANY COMPETENT WRENCHERS CAN TURN A $500 CAR INTO A WORTHWHILE RACE CAR!!!
THEY CAN INSTALL CAGES AND MAKE TIME CONSUMING AND EXPENSIVE REPAIRS BECAUSE THEY ARE TALENTED ENOUGH TO ELIMINATE THE TIME EXPENSE!!!!!
Look at the Mercedes they fixed with some time and rewiring. You think a cage is an undertaking, try fixing a V12 Benz!
Guys going on about the financial genius of buying a cheap race car obviously lack those abilities or the creative handling of such financial transactions to stay out of trouble.
Ever heard of the Fifth Amendment?
I have spent more time reading your discussion than I have negotiating the purchase of a potential LeMon. I have yet to pay for than $200 for any car I will use in a Lemons endeavor.
I don't care if you buy the car or not. Since you are hell bent on a non-existent guarantee, I suggest you apply to a race and get accepted before you purchase you super value x-racer. In fact, please explain in detail the brilliance of your plan on your application. We will all look forward to seeing you in a future Paddock.
I built a car because I read the rules. If the Yahoo Group was around, I hadn't heard of it. The Forum was definitely not around. So many of us were flying blind in the wind. We read the rules and made it work.
This is racing and there are no guarantees.
Nut Up or Shut Up!
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