Topic: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

Working on the car today I came up with a dastardly plan to help our Mark Ate turn.

You see the problem is that the big V8 sits directly over the front wheels.  That can't be good for the balance.

Tommy managed to spin the tires for an entire 1/8th mile pass last night at the dragstrip ( on the rain tires from Houston's race )

So I started thinking of a solution...  Then it hit me, shift the engine back about 12 inches, letting the bulk of the engine sit behind the front wheels.

This should move our CG back 4-5" which can't possibly hurt us.

I think we can do it without affecting or modifying the cage too which is a big bonus.  It's all labor and welding time...

So it this a crazy good idea or a crazy crazy idea?

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

If you can do it without creating more problems for yourself I don't see a reason not to. I am on the AMG Racing team, working on the Mercedes squidbreath owns, in the middle of a V8 swap. We considered this, but the cons out weighed the pros. Setting the engine back more would have interfered with the steering, since it is a rear steer car. It would have made the already very challenging task of making exhaust work on the drivers side even more daunting, and would have further cut down on foot room, since there is a lot of stuff happening on the DS, much thanks to the T5 clutch fork design. It also would have put the shifter behind the driver, and would have required some linkage to make that work comfortably. In the end it was easier to simply set the motor back about 2 inches into the firewall, which put the two front cylinders over the front axle center line, and the rest behind it. I think it worked out well, and the shifter ended up in a very nice spot.

I guess what I am trying to say, is do some tape measure estimations, and see if it is possible and if it will effect the car in mostly positive ways. Weigh the pros and the cons, and go from there.

Keeping it real since last Tuesday!

Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

I had this delimma creep up in the past.  I actually moved the front wheels forward rather than move the engine back.  This kept clearances with firewall constant, as well as drive shaft length, wiring, throttle components, etc etc etc.  Exhaust didn't change, either.  Just a thought...

Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

Both are good suggestions although this car is long enough, 113" wheelbase already vs a miata's 89". 

Here is a photo showing the wheel centerline over the engine:

http://www.dummycorp.net/EngineBayShift.jpg

The motor is 425 pounds, the transmission is 150, both dry.  Add 50 for fluids and we have 625 pounds moving.

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

5 (edited by DaveH 2010-03-07 11:19 AM)

Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

TheHeckler wrote:

So I started thinking of a solution...  Then it hit me, shift the engine back about 12 inches, letting the bulk of the engine sit behind the front wheels.

I've looked at this in detail.  The problem is that the front subframe will interfere with the oil filter, a/c compressor, and power steering pump.  You can't move the subframe because it holds the lower control arms.  Getting the motor mounts moved back also involves some serious custom fabrication.

Rerouting the belt so you can remove the power steering and a/c will require moving the tensioner - which means fabricating something to hold it - the only way I saw it working involved drilling and tapping a new hole in the block.  If you can solve that problem, a remote oil filter kit might give you enough clearance to the frame.

I believe your Mark Ate has the aluminum driveshaft, so you'll have to find a steel driveshaft and get that one shortened.

Here's some good pictures of the subframe and motor mounts:

http://www.p71interceptor.com/enginemounts/pictures/

Dave Heinig - Schumacher Taxi Service
coROLLa - 2 time loser, RWB MR2 - 5 time loser
The Craptation - IOE WINNER! Lemons South Spring 2010
Crown Vic - Please God Don't Ever Make Me Go Through That Again

Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

DaveH wrote:

I've looked at this in detail.  The problem is that the front subframe will interfere with the oil filter, a/c compressor, and power steering pump.  You can't move the subframe because it holds the lower control arms.  Getting the motor mounts moved back also involves some serious custom fabrication.

Rerouting the belt so you can remove the power steering and a/c will require moving the tensioner - which means fabricating something to hold it - the only way I saw it working involved drilling and tapping a new hole in the block.  If you can solve that problem, a remote oil filter kit might give you enough clearance to the frame.

We removed the AC and use a remote filter / cooler setup already.

We solved the tensioner issue with a grooved pulley from a 3.8L V6 and mounted it near the passenger head.  Only a tiny amount of grinding and a shorter belt and we were good to go.

I haven't looked into the power steering pulley issue.  That could be a snag.

Also the steering gear is pretty tight in there but I have a spare column and the u-joints from it.

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

not to mention building a new firewall, pushing the seat back, relocating the steering wheel...

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Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

Sir Thomas Crapper wrote:

not to mention building a new firewall, pushing the seat back, relocating the steering wheel...

That's actually the (somewhat) easy part.  Just chop about 12" out of the body, unbolt it, move it backwards, and weld.

Dave Heinig - Schumacher Taxi Service
coROLLa - 2 time loser, RWB MR2 - 5 time loser
The Craptation - IOE WINNER! Lemons South Spring 2010
Crown Vic - Please God Don't Ever Make Me Go Through That Again

Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

Sounds like you got the major hurtles figured out. So it can only help you.

DO it... if anything goes wrong you will just fit into Lemons that much more.

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"

Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

DaveH wrote:
Sir Thomas Crapper wrote:

not to mention building a new firewall, pushing the seat back, relocating the steering wheel...

That's actually the (somewhat) easy part.  Just chop about 12" out of the body, unbolt it, move it backwards, and weld.

The Linco is unibody construction so there's no unbolting...

Plasma cutter and lots of sheetmetal work...

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

TheHeckler wrote:

The Linco is unibody construction so there's no unbolting...

Plasma cutter and lots of sheetmetal work...

Really?  I thought it was a gussied up Crown Vic.

And after a couple of seconds of thinking about it, its the Towncar I'm thinking of.  Nevermind.  Actually, disregard all of my previous advice - its probably wrong.

Dave Heinig - Schumacher Taxi Service
coROLLa - 2 time loser, RWB MR2 - 5 time loser
The Craptation - IOE WINNER! Lemons South Spring 2010
Crown Vic - Please God Don't Ever Make Me Go Through That Again

Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

this isn't crazy at all. its very practical and a good idea. hard to do within budget, but totally acceptable.

you want crazy? move the engine behind the driver. You'll be crazy bad-ass then.

Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

DaveH wrote:
TheHeckler wrote:

The Linco is unibody construction so there's no unbolting...

Plasma cutter and lots of sheetmetal work...

Really?  I thought it was a gussied up Crown Vic.

And after a couple of seconds of thinking about it, its the Towncar I'm thinking of.  Nevermind.  Actually, disregard all of my previous advice - its probably wrong.

Yes, it all is. The Mark VIII rides on the FN10 platform, which is a "gussied up" MN12, more commonly known as the '89-97 Cougar/Thunderbird.

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Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

DaveH wrote:

I believe your Mark Ate has the aluminum driveshaft, so you'll have to find a steel driveshaft and get that one shortened.

Whats wrong with shortening an aluminum drive shaft?

Yee-Haw 2010 "Most Heroic Fix" & "I Got Screwed" -2 trophies for 1 lap, but I took checkered on my lap.
Gator-O-Rama 2012 "Organizers Choice" -2 laps 1 trophy, but i still finished ahead of an E30
Yee-Haw 2013 No trophy -26 laps, I think I see a pattern here
Gator-O-Rama 2014 "Waiting for the Last Minute Call from the Governor Award" -who's counting? John

Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

Lemonade Time Racing wrote:
DaveH wrote:

I believe your Mark Ate has the aluminum driveshaft, so you'll have to find a steel driveshaft and get that one shortened.

Whats wrong with shortening an aluminum drive shaft?

Nothing really, it's just tricky finding someone to do it. I did and IRS swap in a Crown Victoria a while back, and finding someone that was willing to touch the drive shaft was difficult. Some places where on board until I told them what it was out of. Someone told me the Crown Vic aluminum shaft is balanced a certain way from the factory that they didn't have the tooling to do, and he was unsure if it could be balanced again and he would not warranty anything. And all of the places that said they would do it outsourced the job (and of course none would tell me who they send it to) and I had to pay shipping there and back on top of the job. The average quote was $350-375. I ended up getting a steel one at Pick-N-Pull and got it shortened with the new flange on the back end for a total cost of $100.

Keeping it real since last Tuesday!

Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

how dangerous would some of us Lemons engineers be if we had the million dollar tools to go with the million dollar ideas.

I have never once used a lathe, but I bet i could shorten an aluminum shaft and retain its balance in less than an hour.

Yee-Haw 2010 "Most Heroic Fix" & "I Got Screwed" -2 trophies for 1 lap, but I took checkered on my lap.
Gator-O-Rama 2012 "Organizers Choice" -2 laps 1 trophy, but i still finished ahead of an E30
Yee-Haw 2013 No trophy -26 laps, I think I see a pattern here
Gator-O-Rama 2014 "Waiting for the Last Minute Call from the Governor Award" -who's counting? John

17 (edited by edward 2010-03-08 08:35 PM)

Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

The making it shorter is easy. You don't even need one of those fancy lathe thingies. Re-joining the two pieces is what takes the skill.

Edward

Edward
Angry Hamster Racing
Angry Hamster Racing on Facebook

Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

Lemonade Time Racing wrote:

I have never once used a lathe, but I bet i could shorten an aluminum shaft and retain its balance in less than an hour.

You're missing the point...

I bet I could shorten a drive shaft in less than an hour and make it last a race.  I'm on the same team as DaveH and there was/is a very real possibility of shortening a car for a race.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
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Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

I have a lathe, and I also now have access to all the tooling to do drive lines. A friend of mine bought a failing drive shaft business. I will be building the one for our car, steel however. He shortened an aluminum shaft that was all dented up and polished it on the lathe and set it on the table at his shop. It looks pretty good. Now that I have access to the tooling, I think I would have at least tried it. But out sourcing it seemed too risky since no one seemed confident in it.

Keeping it real since last Tuesday!

Re: Crazy Brilliant or Crazy Crazy?

Run a driveshaft loop. It's a good idea even if you aren't modding your diveshaft.

Also, balancing your driveshaft can be usually accomplished with a hose clamp or two.