Claims in the Spirit (Page 1 of 2)

A rule like that would get twisted the same way the old people's curse rule did. For reference there used to be the people's curse where each race everyone voted on a car to get punished. For a while it helped enforce the "spirit of Lemons" aspect, but it started turning into a way to just take out the guys leading the race. A claim rule would do the same. I'm sure someone would come after our car without knowing it's story. 2008 Saab 9-5 Aero sure seems like a "$500 car my ass" type of car, and even in stock trim it's fast enough to be a top 20 car with our sorry team, potentially top 10 with a team more disciplined. But it does fit the Lemons rules/spirit. My dad bought it brand new, put 254k miles on it, and then said let's race it. There were enough fancy systems broken (backup sensors, auto leveling headlights, etc) that the highest trade in offer he got was $1000. We asked Lemons if it was cool to use that $1000 value minus what we could sell the interior for and they said sure, because that does fit the spirit of what they're trying to do.

Fact is there are cars that have been racing for literally years, and each race you are allowed to make some improvements, so some cars have had years and years of slow progressive improvements. The wonderful world of speedcreep. We can open the conversation of how do you try to keep speedcreep in check, but opening the doors to allow any team to claim another car at any time is a terrible way to do it. If I was more of an A-hole and that rule existed I'd build the cheapest car I could, enter a race, and then just claim the race leader's car so I could have the fast car. I think a rule like that would kill the series before it fixed speedcreep, because who would want to put in the time and energy when their car can just be taken away. $1000 to the team barely costs a roll cage these days, let alone all the other stuff required to build a car.

In general Lemons does well with simply making those teams that don't "get" Lemons, or have the wrong attitudes just not feel welcome and push them to other series. I find that to be the best answer. Doesn't bother me that I have no chance of winning overall, that's not why i'm here.

think it is bad here, go to Champ/Chumpcar. You better bring something fast or you will get run over.

The number of people coming in with truly cheaty cars because they think it's fun to just thrash everyone is not as high as you think. Not sure if you're referencing a specific team/car with the vette cart comment, but at least at the races around me I've seen the few teams that don't meet the Lemons spirit effectively pushed on by HQ.

For me, it's not a dollar number that's the problem, it's the fact that a rule like that can and will be abused. You could offer me $10k for our car, I'd tell you to F off. There is sentimental value to a lot of people's cars because of the time and effort and years of memory building that come with them. A claiming rule may solve the problem you're trying to address, but it would bring in so many bigger problems as to make it harmful not helpful.

This is different, in that what's being proposed is to let anyone claim a car, not just the Organizers.

This!  We have been at this almost a decade and most of the cars we have built fit in the actual $500's per the rules.  One that does not STARTED as a $500 car within the rules for its first (IoE winning) race and we have developed it beyond that but:

All the parts are junkyard and/or fabricated with simple tools (one exception below)
The car requires a comprehensive spreadsheet if you send someone for parts as it is made up of over 15 years and 7 makes of car
The only thing that puts it outside of the actual $500 rule (with residuals) is we finally went to a cheaty transmission after destroying every variant and build possibility of "stock" transmissions and we were tired of losing track time.
The judges and the general public love the friggin car

We don't get butthurt about newer, fancier cars that don't fit what we see as the spirit of the $500 rule because, as mentioned, they rarely win anything...and yet to see one win overall in the Midwest.  Heck, they don't even usually qualify for Heroic Fix, I Got Screwed, etc.  And guess what, beating them is so, so much sweeter when you know the hundreds of hours you have into developing your car with junkyard crap beats their checkbook approach!  Its even sweeter when one of our IoE build spank them because they blow up in the first hour on Saturday and the team does not have the knowledge, spares, or will to get it back on the track...and will not accept donations of all of the above from the few hundred people that offer it.

We ran our first race this year and I'll admit I was also surprised at the level of competition, even in C class. But we weren't upset by that at all and it just motivated us to find a little more (cheap) speed for the next race. Someone on here said you'll never win your first race, so we went into it with no expectations at all and had a ton of fun knowing we weren't competitive from the start. It is true the well organized teams usually win - we finished 69 laps down from overall in a terrible car, but if you take out the pit stop miscues and black flags, would've easily cut that gap in half without adding any more speed to the car.

For next race, our pit radio guy has agreed that he won't leave the radio unattended to go buy hamburger buns - we think we found 10 laps from this fix alone.

On the cheaty cars, doesn't bother us much as long as they aren't too ragey when they pass us every 5 laps!

I would be against any kind of claiming rule.  For any amount.  There's just too much time, sweat and love that goes into building a decent, reliable, safe and relatively quick Lemons car, especially if it starts out as none of these things.  The cars that are truly fast usually get penalty laps or the teams eventually gravitate to other series.

Also, like others have said, speed isn't the main decider of who wins.  We've won overall in a car that wasn't in the top 20% lap time and B ( 6th overall ) in a car that is smack in the middle of overall speed.  Long stints, quick pit stops and no black flags is more important than speed.

BLUF: I think pursuing the I.O.E. is "the spirit of Lemons". (Bottom Line Up Front)

I feel the need to point out the word "theme" doesn't actually appear in the rules. Having said that, the race wouldn't be nearly as entertaining without themes. I suffer from a lack of creativity - theme will be hard for me.

Counter position:
  My "victory" in Lemons will be by building a car that passes tech and gets out onto the track [... it'll be a little faster than a Civic ...], with a couple of friends and relatives on a team.

O.P.:
A.  I totally understand a concern regarding speed differential, and how that can increase risk of collision on the track. That is one of my concerns, also.

B.  I see you found rules 2.1 [$500] and 1.4 [claiming], but there are more subsections in rules 1 and 2 that are pertinent to your concerns.

/A.:  My first race was NJMP this year; I had a blast, and though I was about the slowest on the track, it clearly wasn't the car.

As an "arrive and drive" I wanted to make sure someone else's car got back in one piece so the rest of the team could drive. I drove the car like it was the wheelchair bus I used to drive, so I was used to being passed all the time. By the way, there's a ton of mirrors on those busses, so the visibility is actually better than many cars and SUVs.

I was having problems seeing overtaking cars on the right, so I generally kept far to the right and did point-bys. I think in 2.4 hours I "took the line" maybe 9 times total - seriously (one of them I spun off track, though I had a little help).

/B.:   From the FAQ:
"The I.O.E. (Index of Effluency) is the grand prize awarded at each 24 Hours of Lemons race. Using a proprietary calculation of how bad a Lemons entry is versus how high it finished, race organizers bestow the award on only the most worthy teams. Winners of the I.O.E. enjoy the highest honors (a low bar, we know) of any Lemons trophy."

And, specified in rule 1.5, the largest money haul with a trophy comes with the I.O.E., not winning overall on laps:
$601 + $1430 [free entry value] = $2031

I think pursuing the I.O.E. is "the spirit of Lemons". I'm not convinced raw speed is primary to winning the grand prize.

Work you do yourself doesn't count toward the budget for the car. There are a lot of really capable builders in Lemons; I'm not one of them. I'm not a mechanic. I have to make good choices to keep a car running.

And, if it breaks - either through failure of preparation or contact - I'm likely done for the weekend.

I looked at our last race.  We finished 28th out of 131.  Of the next 25 cars behind us, 20 had a faster fastest lap and 23 of them were not in C class with us.  The only team to beat us in class had a slower faster lap than us.  The race is won and lost on efficiency, reliability, and staying out of trouble.

Does anyone have any photos of the death kart? It failed tech at Colorado, right?

Snipping the relevant section.
This is what I meant by there already being some systems in place to take care of those that don't fit the series. I've seen a few teams come to Lemons and then not come back because either they realized this isn't for them, or HQ made them feel unwelcome, because they were. Most kind of realize that there are series out there for being super series, and then there are series more for fun. Sometimes it takes a couple races to get to that end result, but it seems to get there.

To be completely fair - Any car weighing 4000 lbs equipted with a V8 of 400 or more cubic inches with less that 200 HP  should get a two hour head start.

Just saying