Topic: Claims in the Spirit

hey guys, I am about to get roasted here I am sure...

Is it just me or does it feel like so many teams are losing the spirit of Lemons? Full built race cars or cars that are waaaay to new to make me believe in the 500 dollar limit...

we have raced in a few races now including a couple full 24 hours events and I feel like more cars on the track are this way than not.

To keep Lemons fair they should implement a $1500 claim rule that would keep it fair.

Any car that hits the track can be claimed for $1500. with 1000 going to the team and 500 going to Lemons... that is 3 times the supposed car value and would keep things fair. This wouldn't include safety equipment, personal stuff, or comms, but would be the complete car with powertrain for 1500. I feel this would stop the guys who want to go out with way too powerful of a car and run over everyone on the track.

Remember... this is Lemons not Le Mans...

Re: Claims in the Spirit

A rule like that would get twisted the same way the old people's curse rule did. For reference there used to be the people's curse where each race everyone voted on a car to get punished. For a while it helped enforce the "spirit of Lemons" aspect, but it started turning into a way to just take out the guys leading the race. A claim rule would do the same. I'm sure someone would come after our car without knowing it's story. 2008 Saab 9-5 Aero sure seems like a "$500 car my ass" type of car, and even in stock trim it's fast enough to be a top 20 car with our sorry team, potentially top 10 with a team more disciplined. But it does fit the Lemons rules/spirit. My dad bought it brand new, put 254k miles on it, and then said let's race it. There were enough fancy systems broken (backup sensors, auto leveling headlights, etc) that the highest trade in offer he got was $1000. We asked Lemons if it was cool to use that $1000 value minus what we could sell the interior for and they said sure, because that does fit the spirit of what they're trying to do.


Fact is there are cars that have been racing for literally years, and each race you are allowed to make some improvements, so some cars have had years and years of slow progressive improvements. The wonderful world of speedcreep. We can open the conversation of how do you try to keep speedcreep in check, but opening the doors to allow any team to claim another car at any time is a terrible way to do it. If I was more of an A-hole and that rule existed I'd build the cheapest car I could, enter a race, and then just claim the race leader's car so I could have the fast car. I think a rule like that would kill the series before it fixed speedcreep, because who would want to put in the time and energy when their car can just be taken away. $1000 to the team barely costs a roll cage these days, let alone all the other stuff required to build a car.


In general Lemons does well with simply making those teams that don't "get" Lemons, or have the wrong attitudes just not feel welcome and push them to other series. I find that to be the best answer. Doesn't bother me that I have no chance of winning overall, that's not why i'm here.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Claims in the Spirit

I would rather see overspending addressed through a more aggressive assignment of penalty laps than is sometimes currently the case, as there are just too many opportunities for an open claiming rule to be abused for spite or revenge. Beyond that, and even leaving aside the question of the many, many hours of uncompensated time that people put into building their cars, an open claiming rule would need to be set at substantially higher than $1500 just to cover the cost of the cage, since that can't be removed in a useful manner at the end of the race.

My own car is a 1967 SAAB 96 that was dragged from a farmer's field and has been subjected to no mechanical improvements. It is, I believe, nobody's idea of a cheaty car. Nonetheless if a team came to me with $1500 (or even a lot more than $1500) at the end of a race and told me I was required to drop everything I was doing in order to strip what I could from it so they could take the rest, I would either (1) say no and risk being told by HQ never to return to the series or (2) comply with the rule, cut out every permitted item in a way that did as much damage to the car as possible while shouting a continuous stream of obscenities, then decide for myself never to return to the series. I'm generally considered to be on the easygoing side of things, but it just wouldn't be worth it at that point. My guess is I'm not alone in this.

(I now see that TheEngineer touched upon many of the same points while I was composing this...)

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP

Re: Claims in the Spirit

Thunderturd wrote:

hey guys, I am about to get roasted here I am sure...

Is it just me or does it feel like so many teams are losing the spirit of Lemons? Full built race cars or cars that are waaaay to new to make me believe in the 500 dollar limit...

we have raced in a few races now including a couple full 24 hours events and I feel like more cars on the track are this way than not.

To keep Lemons fair they should implement a $1500 claim rule that would keep it fair.

Any car that hits the track can be claimed for $1500. with 1000 going to the team and 500 going to Lemons... that is 3 times the supposed car value and would keep things fair. This wouldn't include safety equipment, personal stuff, or comms, but would be the complete car with powertrain for 1500. I feel this would stop the guys who want to go out with way too powerful of a car and run over everyone on the track.

Remember... this is Lemons not Le Mans...

think it is bad here, go to Champ/Chumpcar. You better bring something fast or you will get run over.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Claims in the Spirit

For the record, I am not looking to win in any way, just trying to keep people with 10k in a car coming in and running over all the other people on the track because they cant get around slower cars in the corner.

Treating this more as a deterrence to building a 10k corvette cart that "I only got for 500 bucks"

for a dollar amount make it 5k then but at least have a creeping possibility that if you get too good maybe its time to move up...

Re: Claims in the Spirit

The number of people coming in with truly cheaty cars because they think it's fun to just thrash everyone is not as high as you think. Not sure if you're referencing a specific team/car with the vette cart comment, but at least at the races around me I've seen the few teams that don't meet the Lemons spirit effectively pushed on by HQ.


For me, it's not a dollar number that's the problem, it's the fact that a rule like that can and will be abused. You could offer me $10k for our car, I'd tell you to F off. There is sentimental value to a lot of people's cars because of the time and effort and years of memory building that come with them. A claiming rule may solve the problem you're trying to address, but it would bring in so many bigger problems as to make it harmful not helpful.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Claims in the Spirit

It is already in the rules:

1.4: Claiming Race: At the end of the competition, the Organizers–and nobody else, you lazy, better-car-wantin’ bastids–may elect to purchase any vehicle from its owner(s) for $500. In 80 races and counting, we’ve claimed cars precisely twice. Don’t piss us off so much that we raise that to three.

Re: Claims in the Spirit

rb92673 wrote:

It is already in the rules...

This is different, in that what's being proposed is to let anyone claim a car, not just the Organizers.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP

Re: Claims in the Spirit

As someone who has been a racer and a judge, I can say there are a lot of cheaty-ass cars out there!
I can also say that most of those cars DONT WIN!!!!!
Look, just to be real about the whole series. Any team that has won a class or overall understands the formula, its not all about speed!
Reliability is the key, followed closely by efficient time management with pit stops, and not having to stop for any other reason than fueling!
Black flags, breakdowns, 15 minute fuel stops, are the reasons you don't win, NOT HOW FAST THE CAR IS!
How good your Team is dictates your final standing.
I can tell you that a lot of top teams aren't as cheaty as the midfielders who can't stay out of the penalty box!
I used to think the pointy end of the field was just because of cheaters like everyone does, but I have seen first hand how well a clean race gives a team the best finish.
As far as FIXING the problem, I believe it is a non issue.....
Thoughts?
Manny

Re: Claims in the Spirit

Mkotzias wrote:

As someone who has been a racer and a judge, I can say there are a lot of cheaty-ass cars out there!
I can also say that most of those cars DONT WIN!!!!!
Look, just to be real about the whole series. Any team that has won a class or overall understands the formula, its not all about speed!
Reliability is the key, followed closely by efficient time management with pit stops, and not having to stop for any other reason than fueling!
Black flags, breakdowns, 15 minute fuel stops, are the reasons you don't win, NOT HOW FAST THE CAR IS!
How good your Team is dictates your final standing.
I can tell you that a lot of top teams aren't as cheaty as the midfielders who can't stay out of the penalty box!
I used to think the pointy end of the field was just because of cheaters like everyone does, but I have seen first hand how well a clean race gives a team the best finish.
As far as FIXING the problem, I believe it is a non issue.....
Thoughts?
Manny

This!  We have been at this almost a decade and most of the cars we have built fit in the actual $500's per the rules.  One that does not STARTED as a $500 car within the rules for its first (IoE winning) race and we have developed it beyond that but:

All the parts are junkyard and/or fabricated with simple tools (one exception below)
The car requires a comprehensive spreadsheet if you send someone for parts as it is made up of over 15 years and 7 makes of car
The only thing that puts it outside of the actual $500 rule (with residuals) is we finally went to a cheaty transmission after destroying every variant and build possibility of "stock" transmissions and we were tired of losing track time.
The judges and the general public love the friggin car

We don't get butthurt about newer, fancier cars that don't fit what we see as the spirit of the $500 rule because, as mentioned, they rarely win anything...and yet to see one win overall in the Midwest.  Heck, they don't even usually qualify for Heroic Fix, I Got Screwed, etc.  And guess what, beating them is so, so much sweeter when you know the hundreds of hours you have into developing your car with junkyard crap beats their checkbook approach!  Its even sweeter when one of our IoE build spank them because they blow up in the first hour on Saturday and the team does not have the knowledge, spares, or will to get it back on the track...and will not accept donations of all of the above from the few hundred people that offer it.

Re: Claims in the Spirit

Any sort of claimer rules would kill entries.  Your point is well taken, however most of those fast cars don't win.  If you're within the rules, you should be competitive in C class.  And even B class. 

In regards to faster cars, to me, it's the brain in the helmet more than anything.  There are some fast guys that think a race is won or lost in every corner and others that will wait until an appropriate place to pass and give you a waive on the way by.

Re: Claims in the Spirit

We ran our first race this year and I'll admit I was also surprised at the level of competition, even in C class. But we weren't upset by that at all and it just motivated us to find a little more (cheap) speed for the next race. Someone on here said you'll never win your first race, so we went into it with no expectations at all and had a ton of fun knowing we weren't competitive from the start. It is true the well organized teams usually win - we finished 69 laps down from overall in a terrible car, but if you take out the pit stop miscues and black flags, would've easily cut that gap in half without adding any more speed to the car.

For next race, our pit radio guy has agreed that he won't leave the radio unattended to go buy hamburger buns - we think we found 10 laps from this fix alone.

On the cheaty cars, doesn't bother us much as long as they aren't too ragey when they pass us every 5 laps!

Re: Claims in the Spirit

Rusty_lugnuts gets it!

It is true the well organized teams usually win - we finished 69 laps down from overall in a terrible car, but if you take out the pit stop miscues and black flags, would've easily cut that gap in half without adding any more speed to the car.

!This!

A clean race will get you in the fight much more than a "fast" car will.......Mike drop!

Manny

Re: Claims in the Spirit

I would be against any kind of claiming rule.  For any amount.  There's just too much time, sweat and love that goes into building a decent, reliable, safe and relatively quick Lemons car, especially if it starts out as none of these things.  The cars that are truly fast usually get penalty laps or the teams eventually gravitate to other series.

Also, like others have said, speed isn't the main decider of who wins.  We've won overall in a car that wasn't in the top 20% lap time and B ( 6th overall ) in a car that is smack in the middle of overall speed.  Long stints, quick pit stops and no black flags is more important than speed.

COM ( Chief Operating Moron ) of Burnt Rubber Soul Racing
Current fleet: 95 Ford Probe, 81 Mazda 626.  Past: 81 Imperial
Facebook page:  https://www.facebook.com/burntrubbersoulracing

15 (edited by chaase 2021-09-14 07:04 PM)

Re: Claims in the Spirit

majo wrote:

I would be against any kind of claiming rule.  For any amount.  There's just too much time, sweat and love that goes into building a decent, reliable, safe and relatively quick Lemons car, especially if it starts out as none of these things.  The cars that are truly fast usually get penalty laps or the teams eventually gravitate to other series.

Also, like others have said, speed isn't the main decider of who wins.  We've won overall in a car that wasn't in the top 20% lap time and B ( 6th overall ) in a car that is smack in the middle of overall speed.  Long stints, quick pit stops and no black flags is more important than speed.

/agree

The bigger problem I have is people showing up with cars that have no theme whatsoever. Too many cars are showing up that have nothing but numbers.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleship
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Claims in the Spirit

BLUF: I think pursuing the I.O.E. is "the spirit of Lemons". (Bottom Line Up Front)

I feel the need to point out the word "theme" doesn't actually appear in the rules. Having said that, the race wouldn't be nearly as entertaining without themes. I suffer from a lack of creativity - theme will be hard for me.

Counter position:
  My "victory" in Lemons will be by building a car that passes tech and gets out onto the track [... it'll be a little faster than a Civic ...], with a couple of friends and relatives on a team.

O.P.:
A.  I totally understand a concern regarding speed differential, and how that can increase risk of collision on the track. That is one of my concerns, also.

B.  I see you found rules 2.1 [$500] and 1.4 [claiming], but there are more subsections in rules 1 and 2 that are pertinent to your concerns.

/A.:  My first race was NJMP this year; I had a blast, and though I was about the slowest on the track, it clearly wasn't the car.

As an "arrive and drive" I wanted to make sure someone else's car got back in one piece so the rest of the team could drive. I drove the car like it was the wheelchair bus I used to drive, so I was used to being passed all the time. By the way, there's a ton of mirrors on those busses, so the visibility is actually better than many cars and SUVs.

I was having problems seeing overtaking cars on the right, so I generally kept far to the right and did point-bys. I think in 2.4 hours I "took the line" maybe 9 times total - seriously (one of them I spun off track, though I had a little help).

/B.:   From the FAQ:
"The I.O.E. (Index of Effluency) is the grand prize awarded at each 24 Hours of Lemons race. Using a proprietary calculation of how bad a Lemons entry is versus how high it finished, race organizers bestow the award on only the most worthy teams. Winners of the I.O.E. enjoy the highest honors (a low bar, we know) of any Lemons trophy."

And, specified in rule 1.5, the largest money haul with a trophy comes with the I.O.E., not winning overall on laps:
$601 + $1430 [free entry value] = $2031

I think pursuing the I.O.E. is "the spirit of Lemons". I'm not convinced raw speed is primary to winning the grand prize.

Work you do yourself doesn't count toward the budget for the car. There are a lot of really capable builders in Lemons; I'm not one of them. I'm not a mechanic. I have to make good choices to keep a car running.

And, if it breaks - either through failure of preparation or contact - I'm likely done for the weekend.

Re: Claims in the Spirit

Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:

BLUF: I think pursuing the I.O.E. is "the spirit of Lemons"


"The I.O.E. (Index of Effluency) is the grand prize awarded at each 24 Hours of Lemons race. Using a proprietary calculation of how bad a Lemons entry is versus how high it finished, race organizers bestow the award on only the most worthy teams. Winners of the I.O.E. enjoy the highest honors (a low bar, we know) of any Lemons trophy."

And, specified in rule 1.5, the largest money haul with a trophy comes with the I.O.E., not winning overall on laps:
$601 + $1430 [free entry value] = $2031

I think pursuing the I.O.E. is "the spirit of Lemons". I'm not convinced raw speed is primary to winning the grand prize.

^^^^This is the way...

It's harder (and more fun) to drive a slow car fast.....

40+x Loser.....You'd think I would learn......
5x I.O.E  Winner   1 Heroic Fix Winner   1 Org Choice Winner
2x  I Got Screwed Winner    2x Class C Winner
(Still a Class B driver in a Class A car)

Re: Claims in the Spirit

I looked at our last race.  We finished 28th out of 131.  Of the next 25 cars behind us, 20 had a faster fastest lap and 23 of them were not in C class with us.  The only team to beat us in class had a slower faster lap than us.  The race is won and lost on efficiency, reliability, and staying out of trouble.

Re: Claims in the Spirit

Totally against the idea of letting the masses claim a car under any circumstance.  The organizers have made it clear they don't want your car either.  They will just ask you not to return if it's too egregious like that death kart a year of so ago.  As mentioned before, we used to have the People's Curse where the unwashed masses would vote to destroy the car that annoyed most of us.  It sort of worked...until it didn't.  Instead of penalizing the car with the most egregious asshat driving as was originally intended, people just started voting for the leader.  And the 2nd place car.  And the 3rd place car.  So the People's Curse (rightly) went away because we fucked it up.  Plus the cars started costing a lot more with additional safety stuff.  Chumpcar uses the system whereby it's incumbent on the participants to rat out their fellow competitors for cheating.  In no way shape or form do I want us turning against each other.  I've been involved in a ton of different forms of racing most of my life from karts to Indycars and participated in a lot of wins along the way.  But the most fun I've had is Lemons.  Yes, cars are getting faster.  That was inevitable.  But a fair bit of that is because a lot of us are getting better as drivers due to track time.  I guarantee a Randy Pobst could get into your car and go a shitload fast than you or any of your teammates have driven it.  Seat time does that.  Yes, we can cheat up our cars and make marginal improvements in lap time but the biggest improvement can be found from the bag of meat in the seat getting faster.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Claims in the Spirit

cheseroo wrote:

Totally against the idea of letting the masses claim a car under any circumstance.  The organizers have made it clear they don't want your car either.  They will just ask you not to return if it's too egregious like that death kart a year of so ago.  As mentioned before, we used to have the People's Curse where the unwashed masses would vote to destroy the car that annoyed most of us.  It sort of worked...until it didn't.  Instead of penalizing the car with the most egregious asshat driving as was originally intended, people just started voting for the leader.  And the 2nd place car.  And the 3rd place car.  So the People's Curse (rightly) went away because we fucked it up.  Plus the cars started costing a lot more with additional safety stuff.  Chumpcar uses the system whereby it's incumbent on the participants to rat out their fellow competitors for cheating.  In no way shape or form do I want us turning against each other.  I've been involved in a ton of different forms of racing most of my life from karts to Indycars and participated in a lot of wins along the way.  But the most fun I've had is Lemons.  Yes, cars are getting faster.  That was inevitable.  But a fair bit of that is because a lot of us are getting better as drivers due to track time.  I guarantee a Randy Pobst could get into your car and go a shitload fast than you or any of your teammates have driven it.  Seat time does that.  Yes, we can cheat up our cars and make marginal improvements in lap time but the biggest improvement can be found from the bag of meat in the seat getting faster.

Does anyone have any photos of the death kart? It failed tech at Colorado, right?

Re: Claims in the Spirit

this conversation about Lemons speed creep, cheatyness, spirit of Lemons, classes, penalty laps,  basic evolution of the race, etc. seems to come up every so often, and interesting to read...

Just an observation:
I was at the NJ race this year which was won by a 2002 Honda Fit, with no theme, which looked pristine on the outside with lots of stickers from AER (American Endurance Racing), engine looked super cheaty, with coilovers, fancy suspension parts, etc  (? worth more than $500)
I'm not sure if they got any penalty laps. I'm not sure if they had a fuel cell....

And they were very fast, although they did not have the fast lap, but they were in the approx. top 5-10 fastest laps.  And I thought they drove relatively aggressively. 

They won by a large margin (approx. 5-10 laps?).  I was standing next to one of their radio guys, and could hear him telling the driver on the last 5 or 10 minutes of the race:  "Don't rush, take it easy, we got this, easy, etc."

After the end of the race, they were quickly packing their gear and cars.  I came up to them to congratulate them since they were parked near us:
Me: "Hey, congratulations!  Looks like you are new to Lemons. Welcome! How was it? Fun? How does it compare to AER racing?"
Guy turns to me with a scowl look: "This sucks.  AER is so much better.  Here there are just a bunch of idiots  all just getting in the way that have no idea how to drive"
(ok...I did not have much to say after that)
They quickly came up to get their trophy at the awards ceremony and left...

I have a feeling they are not going to be back...
Oh well....

Although skimming over some results, it seems that your car needs to be in the top 5 fastest cars (based on fastest laps) to win overall....although winning B or C is different...

Personally, I think penalty laps is not a bad way to go, but in general, it is better to have a system that rewards people (positive reinforcement) than penalize people to influence their behavior.

I would love to have a system where people are incentivized to bring more Class C entries...

mz

MarioKart Driving School: 1987 Honda Prelude Opus #28  (still can't win anything...)
RIP: Oct. 25-26, 2014 (Loudon, NH) - June 8-9, 2019 (Millville, New Jersey; Lightening)
New and improved: 1987 Honda Prelude Opus #11 April 17-18, 2021 (Pittsburgh, PA)  --  ??

Re: Claims in the Spirit

MZAVARIN wrote:

After the end of the race, they were quickly packing their gear and cars.  I came up to them to congratulate them since they were parked near us:
Me: "Hey, congratulations!  Looks like you are new to Lemons. Welcome! How was it? Fun? How does it compare to AER racing?"
Guy turns to me with a scowl look: "This sucks.  AER is so much better.  Here there are just a bunch of idiots  all just getting in the way that have no idea how to drive"
(ok...I did not have much to say after that)
They quickly came up to get their trophy at the awards ceremony and left...

I have a feeling they are not going to be back...
Oh well....


Snipping the relevant section.
This is what I meant by there already being some systems in place to take care of those that don't fit the series. I've seen a few teams come to Lemons and then not come back because either they realized this isn't for them, or HQ made them feel unwelcome, because they were. Most kind of realize that there are series out there for being super series, and then there are series more for fun. Sometimes it takes a couple races to get to that end result, but it seems to get there.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

23 (edited by duthehustle93 2021-09-16 10:12 AM)

Re: Claims in the Spirit

We just got back from the 24hr at HPR and did fairly well in a true sub-$500 miata. We were one of 3 miata-powered miatas with more K-powered and eco-tech miatas in the field. We don't go these races to win, but it would have been nice to know how well we would have done with a more level playing field. We had an absolute blast and didn't spend any energy getting worked up about it, because at the end of the day we had lots of fun and spent less on the car and more money on beer.

I'm very against claiming cars unless they're absurdly cheaty and want to make a point; I know how upset I'd be if someone was able to buy our car for anything less than $2000, I can't imagine how pissed I'd be if I worked as hard as some of these "cheaty" teams did. Very few of these cheaty cars got penalty laps even though they fully expected to get spanked pretty hard. They're all great people and I didn't get the impression that they're doing it to win, they just prefer racing something faster and would rather take the penalty laps in a faster car. Don't hate the player, hate the game I guess. Even putting an * next to the cheaty teams would work for me; we're never going to win, but it would be cool to know how well we actually did among the other <$500 cars.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata

Re: Claims in the Spirit

To be completely fair - Any car weighing 4000 lbs equipted with a V8 of 400 or more cubic inches with less that 200 HP  should get a two hour head start.

Just saying

25 (edited by chaase 2021-09-16 11:26 AM)

Re: Claims in the Spirit

TheEngineer wrote:

Snipping the relevant section.
This is what I meant by there already being some systems in place to take care of those that don't fit the series. I've seen a few teams come to Lemons and then not come back because either they realized this isn't for them, or HQ made them feel unwelcome, because they were. Most kind of realize that there are series out there for being super series, and then there are series more for fun. Sometimes it takes a couple races to get to that end result, but it seems to get there.

/agree

It tends to be a self-solving problem. The vast majority of teams are out there to have fun. The thing to remember is that different people have different ideas on what's fun. To some, its not fun to drive a slow car and lose races. To others, that is a good time. There is room for everyone in Lemons if you keep that in mind and an open mind.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleship
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner