Lame-o unoriginal car choice penalties? (Page 1 of 3)

I second that!

(Proposed to the powers that be previously, but they weren't to hip to it).

To update a bit - don't penalize the miata/e30/crx/integra crowd, just give laps to the weird stuff to even it up a bit.

What is up with trying to dictate or regulate other people's car choices?

Show up with a sub $500 car, drive the wheels off it, and have a good time.

Spoken like a true E30 driver.

We will be setting the bar higher on such cars when it comes to theme and decoration, and lame themes on Miatas and E30s will make us that much more likely to start adding laps for the kind of cheatin' we might normally let slide. So knock us out with your artistic dedication and/or redneck engineering skills... and woe be unto the E30, Miata, RX-7, Mustang, CRX, MR2, or Integra that shows up to the BS Inspection with a sorry-ass, 77-second rattle-can "theme" that was applied in the motel parking lot the night before.

So, if you're driving an E30, we suggest you follow the example of the Porcubimmer. Miata teams would do well to take some tips from the Scalawags, SR-71, and the Ghettocharged Frankenmiata.

I would like to point out that without meaning to, you've all come to an agreement here:

- Lemons is about originality and creativity, and lots of people are sick of seeing the same old car with no creativity effort
- It's hard to build a Lemons car, any Lemons car

So, build whatever car you can find.  Just make your theme cool!  If your theme is 'hey we pulled this bmw 2002 from the weeds and left the weeds intact, that's cool.  It takes a lot of effort to do that.  If you theme is 'hey we pulled this bmw 325 from the weeds and left the weeds intact', you're going to quickly find out what the wrath of the BS judges can be.

This, coming from a guy that drives a very competitive MR2....with a large windmill, solar panel and electric supercharger bolted on various body panels (and a protector spotted owl flying over head)

You could enter a Taurus SHO like we do and blow the motor or transmission, crap is crap, race hard and have fun!!!!!!!

From our perspective, bringing an E30 is better than not signing up at all. We want to encourage people to bring unique stuff but don't necessarily want to actively discourage people to bring mainstream stuff--everybody is welcome. That said, all of us at Lemons HQ are weird old car guys, and we admit that we get more excited when we see weird/old/cool stuff.

Getting into the race - sure.  Making past the first hour, not so much.  How much fun is it for everyone (drivers, course workers, organizers, etc.) if 3/4 of the field is in the garages working on thier cars?  With costs as they are, is it really worth $5000 to bring a Citroen DS to the grid that might not make it past the first driver change? 

Whenever I poll my team, they always come back with that they want to be on track as much as possible and they don't want to drive a rolling chicane of a car.  Both of which are possible with the exact cars that you say are "super lame."

What do you think of a Citation?

In fact, I was thinkin, where the heck can I come up with a DS under $500? I love that car.. that's all we had when I was going up. Took european delivery on our last on in 1971 in Paris - a silver DS21 Pallas

Actually, to paraphrase an earlier comment, I still think: don't penalize the ordinary, reward the extraordinary! I plan on building a monster type car if I can pull it off for the budget, and don't care what penalties we get -.. its just for the fun and the engineering exercise, and those who complain about the penalties are the whiners! 

Lemons Economics:

This thread is evolving into something a bit different.

Spectator Entry = $20 a day, $30 weekend
Driver Cost = $500ish in personal safety gear
                  + $100 driver entry
                  + $500/# drivers  car fee
                  + $??? car cost (a crap load)
          Total = $500 on up may well exceed $1000 just for the car

In the first Houston race in October 2008, 4 cars died during the initial yellow lapping session.  More than 1/2 the cars died Saturday.  By mid-day Sunday we were down to about 30 out of 80 cars.

It is not uncommon for teams to have drivers never get to drive.  So now you've paid the fee to drive and only get to watch.  These cases seem to be declining, teams are seeing the value in reliability.  Most folks would rather watch for $30 than $500+.  I did not get a chance to drive my own car in February, we broke stuff.  In October we all got to drive.  This is REAL racing and it's hard on cars, $500 or otherwise.

So while a Peugot or Citron would be a really cool car, it's a huge up hill battle.  Sure some teams may score a sweet car deal that's an easy build but for the most part all builds are an uphill battle even E30's, Integra's, Miata's or whatever.  A Fiat, Peugot or Citron is like climbing Everest.

For us to rerun our car starts at about $2000 a race.  I/we look at a lot of things and try to make the car as good as we can for each race.  If something happens and we are out of the race, we are out the $2000.  That $50 part you didn't replace that put you out of the race in the first hour really cost you $2050.  Remember, you can watch for $30.  We strive for as much reliability as we can get which leads to more seat time, a better finishing position too and way more fun for the $$$.

In the February race in Houston, we started with about 100 cars and most of them were still out there at lunchtime on Sunday.  Then they started to drop, happened to us.  We lost another clutch.  I think a lot of teams are grasping the fact that reliability is priceless whether your racing Lemons, SCCA or Nasa.

Things I see happen that are just stupid:

1. Anything covered under safety failing.  It's an unlimited budget, make sure all that stuff is perfect!  Sure it's an unlimited budget but you still have to pay for it, suck it up and pay for it.  Racing on crappy tires and questionable brakes is an all-in gamble.  You could lose your car, get injured, injure someone else or their car.  Maybe there's no accident, you just end up on the sidelines with a blow out, a bad caliper or brake line or something.  Now you're in the cheap seats over something you could have and should have replaced.

2. Crappy cooling systems.  Racing with a leaky radiator or other cooling system problems, vintage belts or hoses are like playing Russian roulette with a single shooter.  It would be a miracle if it didn't bite you in the ass.  Even if it puts you over the $500 limit, I would suggest it.  You risk ruining your whole car and becoming a spectator over this too.  The cooling system took out the LS400 in 10/08 and it hasn't returned.  They probably could have fixed it reasonably before the race, now it needs a motor.

I think it's cool to see crazy cars like Peugots and Citrons.  They completely throw any form of rational thinking right out the window.  I guess it shows the limits of my insanity. 

For all the guys strongly encouraging this, I say "Put your money where your mouth is."  Haven't you guys run the Volvo enough, take on the Citron.  I'd love to read about Jonny and Phil personally turning a Citron or Fiat into a Lemons racer.  They can chronicle their build on their respective blog sites.  None of that cheater crap like some race shop custom fabbed and installed a roll cage for them either.  They can either pay market value for the work or even better, do it themselves. 

What I am getting at is, for all the guys encouraging you to spend your $3000 - $5000 for a 10 lap circus, talk/text's cheap!  For those of you willing to take on a crazy car like that, aside from bonus points, maybe you should get a free psychological evaluation.

I encourage everyone wanna be racer to build a car and race in Lemons.  Stop dreaming and start wrenching.

Keep in mind, all you racers feeling feeling a deep sense of persecution because we're picking on your car, that the vast majority of E30s, Miatas, RX-7s, Mustangs, et al get zero penalty laps during the BS inspection. We do, however, scrutinize such cars much more closely than we would, say, a Kia Sephia or diesel Golf.

As for BMWs... why, we love Lemons BMWs! Think of all those $300 E24s, E23s, and E21s out there!