alex3000 wrote:Wow... this all pretty intense! Although all of this seems to make sense.
I guess everyone paying equally for the car is a bit unrealistic.
So you guys get the money in advance? So lets say I go with $700 a seat with 4 people(including myself) That's $2800. This seems doable huh.
So if your the team leader then do you put this money in your own bank account?... The more and more I read these posts it seems like you need to run it more like a business...
I JUST WANT TO RACE!
I obviously feel the need to comment on this topic it's just hard to decide where to start or where it all ends.
Lots of good points have been brought up throughout this discussion.
Let me state this up front, our first LeMon car started out as my car which I felt could and should be the "team's" car. Well, it's my car.
In an ideal situation, everyone would pay up front and evenly. Then they would put in equal amounts of time and everyone would work together harmoniously. They would all drive nicely and never get penalties either.
Then there is reality. While there is a clear no whiner clause in Lemons they are everywhere. (Hell, the curse is whiner payback.) People have limited resources of any combination of: time, money and skills. This will lead to drama and whining.
I do believe there are some wealthy enough teams that just decide this looks like fun and throw in a bunch of money, cause they can afford it, and they go have a good time. Consider that the Brembo crowd, they seem to be a rare breed.
For the rest of us, teams do struggle with the whole funding problem. Some of it is just the cost of the whole thing. Then there are differences of opinion about what the car needs and what needs to happen and when. Things like what tires to run, whether to run a race seat or a stock seat. If you run a race seat which one to you buy. Seating could be a discussion of it's own and has come up many other times. Brakes can be a highly debated topic as well. All these decisions effect your budget of both time and money.
We wasted lots of time due to unnecessary bitching by some team members. If you think your team needs something so badly, by all means go out buy it and make a contribution to the car/team. If you have special needs, do not expect the rest of the team to be psychic and just know this stuff, let everyone know. Otherwise, shut your pie hole and lets get the car built. I think you get the point, while you are busy wasting time on crap that can wait or is optional, the car isn't getting built. This will likely come back to haunt you week of the race.
As time slips away, your options become more limited and typically more expensive. Trying to buy and build a car within the ten weeks between acceptance and the race is possible. You might win the lottery too. This plan may keep you from investing money in a car that you don't race on your first desired entry but it limits your time more which can also cost you more money.
While some people look at our car as a cheater, the biggest reason it turned out as well as it did is due to the time in it. Our build started in February for our first race in October. I spent all kinds of time doing research and finding good deals. You are not likely to find those things in 10 weeks.
To this day, the car still has areas for improvement. Sure, I'd like a hot cam and an LSD but that isn't likely. We do need better mirrors and that will change for the next race. I had the exhaust changed to clear the fuel cell better, they didn't like it at the last race. I made a cool suit system for June. We upgraded the seats and harnesses for February. These are changes in the safety department, they don;t affect our $500 budget but they have cost around $1000. ($1000 Damn, I never thought about that until now.)
It looks like 2010 will offer many opportunities to race Crap Cans. So if you build a car you should be able to find a place to race it. For teams of complete newbies that have never even been on a track before, some DE time in the car will be a very valuable asset. Yes, it is also going to cost you some more money. Most DE events are around $300 for the weekend. So if your racing in Lemons for $500 you're doing it on a DE budget. Shut up and be happy.
Getting back to your time and money resources, rebuilding your brake system can save you money. It takes more time that many teams really don't have and it may not work. So now you've lost the time you didn't have, spent money you didn't want to and you still need a new wheel cylinder or caliper or master cylinder or whatever.
Some rebuild kits are only a little less expensive than rebuilt components. Most rebuilt brake components come with a lifetime warranty. So if your Cavalier burns through calipers, you only have to buy them once for say $20 instead of rebuilding them for $10. So a little more money up front can save you money in the long run.
If you have a bad brake component, especially on a really old or neglected car, just replace it with a rebuilt part. If you have a car with functional brake stuff that is old, rebuild it or replace it anyway. I am seeing an disturbing trend of growing brake failures. The best way to get the most bang for your buck in Lemons is to maximize your seat time. Blown brake lines, failed calipers and stuff has to be fixed. Now, your losing seat time while your doing it during the race instead of in the driveway before the race and you still have to pay for it. It's a bad gamble. It could cost more than a caliper or line if it results an a bad accident.
Having a separate bank account is a good idea and I set one up for the initial build. I also set up a company (DBA). I just never used it.
For our initial build funding, I asked for $50 from each member toward safety stuff for the car plus they buy the wear items: tires and brake pads. Some members contributed more toward the car. Others bitched about paying up for the wear items we didn't use after the race. I strongly suggest you get everyone to PAY UP FRONT!!! Your "friends" will but a price on your friendship.
Explain what people are getting for their money. Make sure people realize they are buying a "chance" to drive. The car can break, get wrecked or crushed and they may not get to drive. I didn't get to drive in February cause the car was broken. Everyone else got to drive and break the car. I was okay with that. Someone who paid their money and didn't get to drive may not feel the same way. This is racing, there are no guarantees or refunds.
You should also set forth some expectations. It takes two people to fuel the car now. With a 4 person team, everyone really needs to be around during pit stops. Some driver's tend to just vanish when they aren't driving. If you drive like a moron, your privileges may get revoked.
We all sign our life away to Lemons to get to race. It is not a bad idea to have a liability release. I have never used one but it isn't a bad idea. We are really racing and it is actually dangerous. You could really get hurt.
Side note: Spouses and family can be an outside factor that affect many teams. We have a second car due to my friend's wife. Wives will have lots of opinions on just how much time and money their husbands put into a race car or team. My friend and team mate's business partners have a very clear no spouse involvement clause in their business. Even if a partner dies, they are bought out and the wife gets the money. It prevents a lot of emotional problems. Just like what seat a car should have. The wife might think a crew should drive a worn out truck one more year so she can go on a trip or whatever.
Team evolution: in 3 races, I have had 10 drivers and only 1 that has raced every race with me. With our fourth race coming up, I am added two new drivers and the four of us from the previous race are returning. So I will have had 12 drivers in the car by the fourth race. This was never the initial intention.
I have been closely involved with two other cars, one of which evolved from my original team (my friend's wife's car), who have experienced evolution and drama too.
As I have added drivers, they all had previous Lemons experience and have their own stories to tell. There never seems to be a shortage on drama in Lemons. Most of it stems from money which results in differences of opinion.
The second car in February is not racing in October because their cage won't pass tech. I believe they used DOM tubing but they tried to bend it themselves. Now they need a new cage to pass the new cage requirements. Doing it right the first time would have saved them time and money in the long run. They will be racing in my my friend's wife's car due to their cage problem.
Odds are most competitive cars were not built on a shoe string budget. They don't have to cheat to be competitive either. They probably did not cost much more to build than a car on a shoe string budget either. An extra $100 on tires can get you better rubber. An extra $100 on brakes can get you some really good brake pads that will probably hold up to racing. Cleaning and re-greasing everything you can will make you more reliable and it is free. Spending money on reliability goes a long way.
When your team is debating replacing the $40, 20 year old water pump as you are installing junk yard fresh headers (I always see headers on every E30 at Pick-A-Part along with fresh Bilsteins.), keep this in mind. That $40 water pump is the difference between a running motor and a cooked motor. It gives you your initial say 150hp. The header adds say 15hp. Without a header you still have 150hp. Without a water pump you will end up with 0hp. Jay commented how many crappy old water pumps he sees to me. Have Jonny and Phil ever penalized anyone for a water pump?
Saving money is a good idea. Decided where to save money is the hard part. Experience is priceless.
I'm done now. May the force be with all new teams.
Troy
#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z