Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners (Page 1 of 2)

oh boy... ball of wax..

Get your money up front whatever the amount is, or you may lose some friends....

Figure your actual costs/drivers and include some risk factor.... If the risk doesn't materialize you can pay back if you want, but good luck collecting it after the fact. If you really are accurate in your record keeping, this is probably a lot more expensive than you realize.

The rates I know of range from $500 to around $800.

We have a contract and everything that spells out what we promise (to get the car to the green flag) and what we expect from them. We include a refundable $200 damage fee for asshat stuff they might do to the car

We've never used the contract. So far all of our drivers have been friends and the contract has served more as a MOI. We've gone by the pay-when-you-can plan and it has worked for us, but again, that was with carefully chosen friends.

My experience to date - 5 arrive and drives with 3 (or 4) different teams.

1) Collect a significant chunk of change when the person says they are "in".  A&D's can flake out at the last minute.  I've typically provided 50% via check or PayPal.

2) Collect the rest of the cash before a lap is turned in anger.  4 out of 5 times, this has included fuel for me.

3) I've paid "a little extra" for gas afterwards with one of the teams, but if you are bringing a reliable car, you should know how much you're going to spend on gas.  Figure that into the total up front.

4) As a new car builder and likely A&D employer in the future, I'm starting to ponder the damage clause.  With the teams I've run so far, nobody mentioned damage up front.  And I didn't do any damage except a few grassy pasture detours and some tire wear.  But it is a significant risk you are taking.  I'm not really considering going for a 'damage deposit' or trying to get people to pay some certain amount if they do damage the car.  I am hoping that I'm a good enough judge of character that my A&D's won't wad up my car and say "Sorry" and walk away.  After all, youre A&D drivers are taking a pretty significant risk giving you hundreds of dollars in the hope that your car will keep running all weekend.  What's their take away if they don't get their 2 - 4 hours of seat time?

The going rate seems to vary widely between teams.  The cheapest I've seen is $400.  I've seen people asking for $1000.  I've typically paid $500 - $600 for the ones I've done.  (Sometimes that includes $100 worth of me using my trailer to tow things around for the team with $100 less on the A&D seat.)

For my first race, I'm considering a $400 A&D fee with a 50% money back if the driver doesn't get a 30 minute stint due to mechanical failure.  Once I know the reliability of the car myself, I intend to adjust the A&D fee and remove the money back part so that the fun/cost factor is equalized.

At that sort of A&D fee, it will take more than four drivers to cover the costs of competition for the weekend, probably.  And I have no illusions that the fees will pay for the construction of the car or the preparation for the next race.

Thoughts?

I've always requested full payment 2 weeks after we've been accepted.  That should give you enough time if they flake to find someone else.

being its a 6th driver you will have to charge less than if it was a 4th, since you are offering less time behind the wheel.  How much to charge is all supply and demand.  If your car is desirable people will pay more, so fast cars and really weird things that will get Lemons die hards.  If your car isn't either the amount people are willing to pay goes down.  Area you are at could also influence price.   If the races all are full and lots of people wanting to race you can charge more.

It is also important to spell out what your expectations are from them and what you are expected to do.  I make sure they know that there is no guaranteed seat time but will guarantee that it will pass tech and be ready for the green flag.  A lot of what have for them is really straight forward like they will have their own legal gear and a valid drivers license and Lemons license.  Another thing to consider is a security deposit.  This is basically for if they total it or if you have multiple arrive and drives and they get your car kicked because they are that big of a douche(not sure how they can do that but you know)  I've gotten it and happily turn it over at the end of the race.

I've prepped my own car once, with a team of six people, and been an arrive and drive eight times now.  I always expect to pay 100% well in advance (after all, the costs are front end loaded for the team captain, so he needs repaid right away) and would never dream of letting someone pay after the fact if I was prepping another car.  You should get your money before the Lemons payment deadline.  I wouldn't even offer a half now - half later deal.  That's like taking payments on a used car, or pot.  By the time you come to collect your second payment they've smoked it all and have no incentive to pay.

I've paid from $450 to $800 to race, with the actual seat time ending up anywhere from 1/2 hour to 5 hours, and think the actual costs are almost always higher than that.  As a team captain you will almost certainly end up eating some costs, there's no way around it.  Nobody is going to pay you enough to cover all your costs.  You always forget something or something comes up and since you own the car you're going to feel obligated to handle it.

On the damage issue, it hasn't come up with any of the teams I've driven with, but it's a bitter pill to think about.  You can't expect the A&D driver to fork over 100% of the cost of the car if he damages it, but it's reasonable to expect assistance - meaning money assistance AND labor - to get it right.  It's a tough issue and should probably be worked out in advance rather than after the fact when tempers are high.

Regarding worrying about them having fun, every single race I've done I've had an ever loving blast.  And that covers everything from a half hour on track and the rest of it working-working-working to the smoothest run race weekend ever.  All of them were a ton of fun.  If your A&D is stressing about not getting enough seat time then maybe Lemons isn't for them.

I've only had my own team once, so YMMV...but I also made sure to burn it into peoples' minds that their money didn't guarantee tham ANY seat time, if for nothing else, setting expectations and keeping friends.  I let them know that I'd get it through inspection and to a green flag, but thhat anything could happen and they may never drive a single lap.  It narrowed my field down some, but I ended up with a dedicated group of people who wanted to work on cars and then possibly race them when we were done.  Ended up being a fantastic time and we're coming back for more!

I have gotten so lucky with this.  I have sold 3 or 4 seats, and they have all been fantastic(all of them are regulars now) .  Always got 1/2 up front, and 2nd part at the track.  Helps with fees in the beginning, and cash at the track is always useful.  They have all bought, borrowed or stole gear, so that's not in the cost. 

Now, if I was doing it with total strangers, I would go 1/2 at signup, 1/2 3 weeks prior, and some kind of contract, I will not tear up the car, if I do I'll throw some money in, I know as the rookie I get to buy beer, etc.  And that would change if it was one of the regulars here, or someone here or local could vouch.  Ymmv

I typically tell people $500, but that doesn't include their Lemons License ($50) or their driver entry fee ($100). I used to worry about the motor breaking, but now we have a back up motor, so I'm not worried about that anymore. So they are paying $650, but $500 of it to you.

If you have 5 drivers it typically breaks down something like (quoting Thunderhill costs from foggy memory, but it typical except for the amount of fuel for the tow)
$100 per person (car entry fee)
$40 per person (trailer rental)
$160 per person (fuel for car & tow vehicle)
$50 per person (2 new tires before this race)
$20 per person (transponder & camping)

So you see I short changed myself $30, and that's not including any other repairs or improvements going into the car. I collected $500 from the last arrive and drive and paid out $530 to various vendors and what not. The next arrive and drive person I sell a seat too will be paying me $600. I am also going to have a word with them about what will happen to them if they are involved in any single vehicle incident, black flag/penalty or not. From now on even if Lemons HQ gives them a slap on the wrist I'm giving them a sit down for a good long time.

No driving at all the rest of the weekend if you get a black flag is pretty harsh. Lots of black flags are erroneous. I simply end their turn. When it comes up again, they go back in the car.

Honestly, I've got the best team I could ask for so as long as they want to keep doing it we are golden. No contracts, no promises. Depending on the reason, a flag might mean a driver change, or it might not. Couldn't resist the off topic - The sticker you gave me? My wife got in 3 wrecks in a month so with my sign cutter I modified it and put it on her car

Hee-hee!  That's fantastic!  I would be dangerous with a vinyl cutter.

I would be turned off by it as an arrive & drive.  I understand having some sort of team penalty for a black flag, but a rule like that would make the team sound too strict.  It seems more like a threat than a "just in case" clause.. The way I look at it is, would you hold yourself to that same rule?