1 (edited by Drdanteiii 2012-12-06 10:09 AM)

Topic: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

So after running our first race with 5 team members, we realize that it could be advantageous to offer our 6th seat (or any other seats if team members can't make it for a race) for A&D racers either from the forum or *gasp* friends and family. 

So what is the normal buy-in rate for an A&D?
And what does that include?  use of car (obviously), Race suit rental, gas, beer, ect?

Our team is thinking $200 for post race repairs and general budget PLUS the fractional share of actual expenses from that weekend.  But I'm worried that might be hard to collect on after the race is over and everyone parts ways.  Would it be better to just estimate costs and collect the money up front and hope we were right?  We don't want to be seen as price gouging jerkoffs either. 

Also, how would you handle an A&D that arrives and totals your car?  Obviously its a risk we have to accept, but do you tell the A&D up front that they would be responsible for more $$$ if they crunch your car into little tiny bits during the race?  Or just give 'em the Nancy Kerrigan in the parking lot afterwards and call it even?

Thanks for the input!

P.S.  I tried to search, and found a few mentions, but nothing that was really concrete.

The Roto-Racer '89 Merkur:  If it ain't rusting, It ain't racing.

'14 Real Hoopties of NJ: Judges Choice

2 (edited by Spinnetti 2012-12-06 10:12 AM)

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

oh boy... ball of wax..

Get your money up front whatever the amount is, or you may lose some friends....

Figure your actual costs/drivers and include some risk factor.... If the risk doesn't materialize you can pay back if you want, but good luck collecting it after the fact. If you really are accurate in your record keeping, this is probably a lot more expensive than you realize.

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

"Show me the money!"
Get it up front. Our team got jobbed by one of our drivers at the Gingerman race this year. He tried to value some items that he brought to the race much higher then we felt they were worth. The team leader ended up eating the $200 the guy shorted the team.

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

The rates I know of range from $500 to around $800.

We have a contract and everything that spells out what we promise (to get the car to the green flag) and what we expect from them. We include a refundable $200 damage fee for asshat stuff they might do to the car

We've never used the contract. So far all of our drivers have been friends and the contract has served more as a MOI. We've gone by the pay-when-you-can plan and it has worked for us, but again, that was with carefully chosen friends.

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

We've done 2 A&D's, charging $750.  Included gear rental.  Lost or barely broke even both times due to a blown motor.

Our drivers were friends and family, so there was no real worry of them welching on their responsibilities.  As far as damage to car, if it was determined by the team it wasn't their fault, it would be split evenly amongst all team members and the A&D driver.  If it was a single-vehicle incident, they would be responsible for all repairs.  My biggest problem was charging someone $750 for 30 minutes of actual seat-time (due to the mechanicals).  I felt so bad that I invited him back for a second A&D at a highly discounted rate (actual costs - no profit potential for the team).

As a captain, I am not a big fan of A&D's because I always stress myself out making sure they are enjoying themselves, and worry about them paying a large chunk of cash and the car pulling itself from the race with a mechanical that we are unable to fix in a timely manner at the track.  At least as a partner in the team, the risk is spread evenly and they have ample opportunities to drive.

#117 - The Fat And The Furious Big Boy Miata & Big Boy Metro-Gnome

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

My experience to date - 5 arrive and drives with 3 (or 4) different teams.

1) Collect a significant chunk of change when the person says they are "in".  A&D's can flake out at the last minute.  I've typically provided 50% via check or PayPal.

2) Collect the rest of the cash before a lap is turned in anger.  4 out of 5 times, this has included fuel for me.

3) I've paid "a little extra" for gas afterwards with one of the teams, but if you are bringing a reliable car, you should know how much you're going to spend on gas.  Figure that into the total up front.

4) As a new car builder and likely A&D employer in the future, I'm starting to ponder the damage clause.  With the teams I've run so far, nobody mentioned damage up front.  And I didn't do any damage except a few grassy pasture detours and some tire wear.  But it is a significant risk you are taking.  I'm not really considering going for a 'damage deposit' or trying to get people to pay some certain amount if they do damage the car.  I am hoping that I'm a good enough judge of character that my A&D's won't wad up my car and say "Sorry" and walk away.  After all, youre A&D drivers are taking a pretty significant risk giving you hundreds of dollars in the hope that your car will keep running all weekend.  What's their take away if they don't get their 2 - 4 hours of seat time?

The going rate seems to vary widely between teams.  The cheapest I've seen is $400.  I've seen people asking for $1000.  I've typically paid $500 - $600 for the ones I've done.  (Sometimes that includes $100 worth of me using my trailer to tow things around for the team with $100 less on the A&D seat.)

For my first race, I'm considering a $400 A&D fee with a 50% money back if the driver doesn't get a 30 minute stint due to mechanical failure.  Once I know the reliability of the car myself, I intend to adjust the A&D fee and remove the money back part so that the fun/cost factor is equalized.

At that sort of A&D fee, it will take more than four drivers to cover the costs of competition for the weekend, probably.  And I have no illusions that the fees will pay for the construction of the car or the preparation for the next race.

Thoughts?

A&D: 2011 Autobahn, 2012 Gingerman, 2012 Road America, 2012 Autobahn II, 2013 Gator-O-Rama (True 24!)
Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
2013 Chubba Cheddar Enduro - Organizer's Choice, 2014 Doing Time in Joliet
http://www.facebook.com/#!/SirJackieSte … urseRacing

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

m610 wrote:

We have a contract and everything that spells out what we promise (to get the car to the green flag) and what we expect from them. We include a refundable $200 damage fee for asshat stuff they might do to the car.

Smart.  Got a copy of it you're willing to share?  Or at least the highlights? 

Definitely not as specific or well thought out as the other teams, but we worked out as many costs as we could ahead of time (some are guesses), created a budget that everyone could see and knew where their money was going and essentially, any extra went towards beer and food.  If you're not willing to pony up for extra beer and food, I don't want ya! 

Since we had a few jockeying for a spot on the team (all friends and family), no one was "in" until they paid to play.

We run kind of loose though, which is why I think a contract is a solid idea.

NJMP '11--#132 (Speedycop), NJMP '12 to '16--#215 (Philthy Motorsports), NJMP '16--#75 Most Heroic Fix, NJMP '17--#75 (still drying out), NJMP '18--#75, NHMS '18 - #75 Datsun 510

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

I've always requested full payment 2 weeks after we've been accepted.  That should give you enough time if they flake to find someone else.

being its a 6th driver you will have to charge less than if it was a 4th, since you are offering less time behind the wheel.  How much to charge is all supply and demand.  If your car is desirable people will pay more, so fast cars and really weird things that will get Lemons die hards.  If your car isn't either the amount people are willing to pay goes down.  Area you are at could also influence price.   If the races all are full and lots of people wanting to race you can charge more.

It is also important to spell out what your expectations are from them and what you are expected to do.  I make sure they know that there is no guaranteed seat time but will guarantee that it will pass tech and be ready for the green flag.  A lot of what have for them is really straight forward like they will have their own legal gear and a valid drivers license and Lemons license.  Another thing to consider is a security deposit.  This is basically for if they total it or if you have multiple arrive and drives and they get your car kicked because they are that big of a douche(not sure how they can do that but you know)  I've gotten it and happily turn it over at the end of the race.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

we charge $800 a seat. newbs, olbs, everyone.

this was what it cost four of us to prep our first car, and we've just managed to spend it all ever since.

it's high, but not foolishly so.

if, someday, we manage to not spend it all in a weekend, we'll refund the leftovers to the veterans. everyone's first time costs $800.

we've been lucky thus far and not lost a car. we've lost three motors, but that's what we do, so it's budgeted for, now.


i'm sketchy about A&Ds and damage, so i'd want to vet the person as well as possible before i took their money.

Team OK-Speed
Regularly losing in Class A
Soon to start losing in Class C

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

I've prepped my own car once, with a team of six people, and been an arrive and drive eight times now.  I always expect to pay 100% well in advance (after all, the costs are front end loaded for the team captain, so he needs repaid right away) and would never dream of letting someone pay after the fact if I was prepping another car.  You should get your money before the Lemons payment deadline.  I wouldn't even offer a half now - half later deal.  That's like taking payments on a used car, or pot.  By the time you come to collect your second payment they've smoked it all and have no incentive to pay.

I've paid from $450 to $800 to race, with the actual seat time ending up anywhere from 1/2 hour to 5 hours, and think the actual costs are almost always higher than that.  As a team captain you will almost certainly end up eating some costs, there's no way around it.  Nobody is going to pay you enough to cover all your costs.  You always forget something or something comes up and since you own the car you're going to feel obligated to handle it.

On the damage issue, it hasn't come up with any of the teams I've driven with, but it's a bitter pill to think about.  You can't expect the A&D driver to fork over 100% of the cost of the car if he damages it, but it's reasonable to expect assistance - meaning money assistance AND labor - to get it right.  It's a tough issue and should probably be worked out in advance rather than after the fact when tempers are high.

Regarding worrying about them having fun, every single race I've done I've had an ever loving blast.  And that covers everything from a half hour on track and the rest of it working-working-working to the smoothest run race weekend ever.  All of them were a ton of fun.  If your A&D is stressing about not getting enough seat time then maybe Lemons isn't for them.

Quad4 CRX - Wartburg 311 - Civic Wagovan - Parnelli Jones Galaxie - LS400 - Lancia MR2 - Boat - Sentra - 56 Ford Victoria
Known Associate of 3pedal Mafia, Speedycop, and the Russians.  Maybe even NSF.

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

"If your A&D is stressing about not getting enough seat time then maybe Lemons isn't for them."

this cannot be stressed enough.

i put in the majority of the labor (as well as my $800 buy in) on the two cars we took to the 24hr at ECR and i managed to eek out 3 hours of seat time out of the 48 we ran. most of our A&D guys got two and three times as much as i did.

Team OK-Speed
Regularly losing in Class A
Soon to start losing in Class C

12

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

I've only had my own team once, so YMMV...but I also made sure to burn it into peoples' minds that their money didn't guarantee tham ANY seat time, if for nothing else, setting expectations and keeping friends.  I let them know that I'd get it through inspection and to a green flag, but thhat anything could happen and they may never drive a single lap.  It narrowed my field down some, but I ended up with a dedicated group of people who wanted to work on cars and then possibly race them when we were done.  Ended up being a fantastic time and we're coming back for more!

NJMP '11--#132 (Speedycop), NJMP '12 to '16--#215 (Philthy Motorsports), NJMP '16--#75 Most Heroic Fix, NJMP '17--#75 (still drying out), NJMP '18--#75, NHMS '18 - #75 Datsun 510

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

we charged $750.00 up front.  This included the Lemons race fees.

Here are the teams rules:

Our Team Rules:

If you are involved in an incident, you will be done driving for the weekend.  Lemons has an everybody at fault belief.  If there is an incident, Lemons considers any persons involved at fault NO MATTER WHAT!.  This means we will have a penalty and may not be able to finish the race if they decide the incident was bad enough.

If the car is wrecked and can't be raced due to the wreck damage, we will split the cost of the repairs between all of the team drivers (this would include you if you wrecked it).  If one of the original team members wrecks the car, you WILL NOT be responsible to help pay for damages.

If you get a black flag for any reason (other thana mechanical issue with the car) you will not be allowed to drive any more for the weekend.

We can NOT guarantee that the car will last the entire race.  We will not offer a refund if it does not complete the entire race.  The car WILL start the race.  You get the first stint of the race.  If you choose to not have the first stint, it is possible (probable) that the car will not be able to continue and you will not get a stint (neither will anybody else!).  You will not get a refund for ANYTHING after the green flag waves.

Okay, now that's over with.  The car has done well in the previous Lemons races it has done.  We have spares of all of the items we could think of that could fail!

If we win, which we have in the past, we use the winnings to pay everybody their race fees back and pay for the gas the car used.  If there is any money left over we split it up.  If somehow, there is no money left over after paying the race fees and gas, we will call it even.

It is probably a good idea to setup a driver profile on www.24hoursoflemons.com if you haven't already.

You will need a race suit, fireproof shoes, fireproof gloves, fireproof socks, etc...  Check the rules on their website to make sure you have what you need.  I believe the SA 2005 helmets are okay.  Check the rules to make sure.

We will not refund your money if your personal safety gear does not pass tech.



Feel free to poke holes in this etc...  I am POSITIVE this WOULD NOT hold up in any sort of official situation.  Therefore, it is more of a "what to expect" memo than a "contract".


YMMV

Rob R.

Ghetto motorsports - Car #555 1980 Mazda RX7 (3x winner of BFE GP / 1x 2nd place of BFE GP...BOO!)
Car #350 78 Chevy Malibu (Least horrible Yank Tank, Heroic Fix) (Gone)
Car # 556 1987 Mazda RX7 (6th place MMC 2013) (1st place Capitol Offense 2013)

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

I have gotten so lucky with this.  I have sold 3 or 4 seats, and they have all been fantastic(all of them are regulars now) .  Always got 1/2 up front, and 2nd part at the track.  Helps with fees in the beginning, and cash at the track is always useful.  They have all bought, borrowed or stole gear, so that's not in the cost. 

Now, if I was doing it with total strangers, I would go 1/2 at signup, 1/2 3 weeks prior, and some kind of contract, I will not tear up the car, if I do I'll throw some money in, I know as the rookie I get to buy beer, etc.  And that would change if it was one of the regulars here, or someone here or local could vouch.  Ymmv

Bloomington, IN
We'll bring Beer!  Motorsports
Team Fiery Death! #0 2009 Lamest Day(65th), 2010 American Irony(24th), 2010 Detroit Bull(4th),2012 Capitol Offense (8th) 2012 American Irony (11 th), 2013 Capitol Offense (3rd) 2013 Chubba Chedder (4th, Judge Choice!) Now sadly part of a scrap pile. 
Toothless Racing Deadbeats #110 2011 Summit Point (61st) Currently being rebuilt into the new car!

15

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

I have had 2 total strangers as arrive and drives.  Both were fantastic.  Only problem I've had with them is they keep deciding to start their own team and build a car meaning I have to find new ones.  I think I might still demand smoked meats of my last arrive and drive, claim it was in the original agreement.  I think part of it is that I'm up front that our team is about having fun and trying to get track time for everyone (since racing cars is fun sitting in penalty box getting yelled at not so much).  I made sure anyone interested knew this was what we were about and hoped to find people of like interest.  So also be honest about what your team is like.  If you want to win say that you will find people that want that.  If you want to run around in drag all weekend dancing, you'll find people who want that to, although if you want to dance in drag you probably won't have as much fun on the team that wants to win and vice versa.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

I typically tell people $500, but that doesn't include their Lemons License ($50) or their driver entry fee ($100). I used to worry about the motor breaking, but now we have a back up motor, so I'm not worried about that anymore. So they are paying $650, but $500 of it to you.

If you have 5 drivers it typically breaks down something like (quoting Thunderhill costs from foggy memory, but it typical except for the amount of fuel for the tow)
$100 per person (car entry fee)
$40 per person (trailer rental)
$160 per person (fuel for car & tow vehicle)
$50 per person (2 new tires before this race)
$20 per person (transponder & camping)

So you see I short changed myself $30, and that's not including any other repairs or improvements going into the car. I collected $500 from the last arrive and drive and paid out $530 to various vendors and what not. The next arrive and drive person I sell a seat too will be paying me $600. I am also going to have a word with them about what will happen to them if they are involved in any single vehicle incident, black flag/penalty or not. From now on even if Lemons HQ gives them a slap on the wrist I'm giving them a sit down for a good long time.

Constructor/Owner/Driver - Billy Beer Ford Futura

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

Team Tinyvette's driver's contract - www.kstreetstudio.com/files/tinyvette/TTV_Driver_Contract.pdf

Suggestions and friendly criticism welcome.

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

No driving at all the rest of the weekend if you get a black flag is pretty harsh. Lots of black flags are erroneous. I simply end their turn. When it comes up again, they go back in the car.

Captain: Speedycop & The Gang Of Outlaws -'94 Mark VIII (Least Horrible Yank Tank Stafford '09, NOLA '10) '61 Caddy (Org Choice-NL '09) '63 Tbird (EPIC Repair Failure-Gingerman '10, I Got Screwed-Summit Pt '10, I.O.E. WINNER Stafford '10!) '77 Lancia Scorpion (I.O.E. WINNER Joliet 2010!) '67 Galaxie 500 (Judges Choice-CMP '11)
Future Fleet: 1957 Ford Prefect 1942 Buick 1959 Bugeye Project GLCOAT

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

we've had two contact incidents with our miata. both times, our driver was as not-at-fault as you can be in this series and both times were fairly early on saturday.

yanking him for the weekend wouldn't have made any sense. I understand why the judges typically pull both drivers after contact, and i agree with their philosophy on the matter. unless the contact was egregious, i'm not sure it warrants further punishment from the team.

Team OK-Speed
Regularly losing in Class A
Soon to start losing in Class C

20 (edited by Spinnetti 2012-12-07 05:39 AM)

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

davisriley wrote:

I have gotten so lucky with this.  I have sold 3 or 4 seats, and they have all been fantastic(all of them are regulars now) .  Always got 1/2 up front, and 2nd part at the track.  Helps with fees in the beginning, and cash at the track is always useful.  They have all bought, borrowed or stole gear, so that's not in the cost. 

Now, if I was doing it with total strangers, I would go 1/2 at signup, 1/2 3 weeks prior, and some kind of contract, I will not tear up the car, if I do I'll throw some money in, I know as the rookie I get to buy beer, etc.  And that would change if it was one of the regulars here, or someone here or local could vouch.  Ymmv

Honestly, I've got the best team I could ask for so as long as they want to keep doing it we are golden. No contracts, no promises. Depending on the reason, a flag might mean a driver change, or it might not. Couldn't resist the off topic - The sticker you gave me? My wife got in 3 wrecks in a month so with my sign cutter I modified it and put it on her car
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/8875/img0229te.jpg

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

Speedycop wrote:

No driving at all the rest of the weekend if you get a black flag is pretty harsh. Lots of black flags are erroneous. I simply end their turn. When it comes up again, they go back in the car.

Just because it is written there doesn't mean we have to enforce it.  It really depends on the attitude and general "fit" of the person on the team.

We have had arrive and drives get black flags (that were legitimate) that we allowed back in the car.

Really, it is just an "out" for us.

Ghetto motorsports - Car #555 1980 Mazda RX7 (3x winner of BFE GP / 1x 2nd place of BFE GP...BOO!)
Car #350 78 Chevy Malibu (Least horrible Yank Tank, Heroic Fix) (Gone)
Car # 556 1987 Mazda RX7 (6th place MMC 2013) (1st place Capitol Offense 2013)

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

Spinnetti wrote:
davisriley wrote:

I have gotten so lucky with this.  I have sold 3 or 4 seats, and they have all been fantastic(all of them are regulars now) .  Always got 1/2 up front, and 2nd part at the track.  Helps with fees in the beginning, and cash at the track is always useful.  They have all bought, borrowed or stole gear, so that's not in the cost. 

Now, if I was doing it with total strangers, I would go 1/2 at signup, 1/2 3 weeks prior, and some kind of contract, I will not tear up the car, if I do I'll throw some money in, I know as the rookie I get to buy beer, etc.  And that would change if it was one of the regulars here, or someone here or local could vouch.  Ymmv

Honestly, I've got the best team I could ask for so as long as they want to keep doing it we are golden. No contracts, no promises. Depending on the reason, a flag might mean a driver change, or it might not. Couldn't resist the off topic - The sticker you gave me? My wife got in 3 wrecks in a month so with my sign cutter I modified it and put it on her car
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/8875/img0229te.jpg

Hee-hee!  That's fantastic!  I would be dangerous with a vinyl cutter.

Bloomington, IN
We'll bring Beer!  Motorsports
Team Fiery Death! #0 2009 Lamest Day(65th), 2010 American Irony(24th), 2010 Detroit Bull(4th),2012 Capitol Offense (8th) 2012 American Irony (11 th), 2013 Capitol Offense (3rd) 2013 Chubba Chedder (4th, Judge Choice!) Now sadly part of a scrap pile. 
Toothless Racing Deadbeats #110 2011 Summit Point (61st) Currently being rebuilt into the new car!

23

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

wvumtnbkr wrote:
Speedycop wrote:

No driving at all the rest of the weekend if you get a black flag is pretty harsh. Lots of black flags are erroneous. I simply end their turn. When it comes up again, they go back in the car.

Just because it is written there doesn't mean we have to enforce it.  It really depends on the attitude and general "fit" of the person on the team.

We have had arrive and drives get black flags (that were legitimate) that we allowed back in the car.

Really, it is just an "out" for us.

In ours we wrote may end your driving for the weekend.  Seems less scarey that way, and I explained you would have to do something incredibly stupid if it was your first black flag.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

wvumtnbkr wrote:
Speedycop wrote:

No driving at all the rest of the weekend if you get a black flag is pretty harsh. Lots of black flags are erroneous. I simply end their turn. When it comes up again, they go back in the car.

Just because it is written there doesn't mean we have to enforce it.  It really depends on the attitude and general "fit" of the person on the team.

We have had arrive and drives get black flags (that were legitimate) that we allowed back in the car.

Really, it is just an "out" for us.

I would be turned off by it as an arrive & drive.  I understand having some sort of team penalty for a black flag, but a rule like that would make the team sound too strict.  It seems more like a threat than a "just in case" clause.. The way I look at it is, would you hold yourself to that same rule?

Quad4 CRX - Wartburg 311 - Civic Wagovan - Parnelli Jones Galaxie - LS400 - Lancia MR2 - Boat - Sentra - 56 Ford Victoria
Known Associate of 3pedal Mafia, Speedycop, and the Russians.  Maybe even NSF.

Re: Arrive and drive etiquette for car owners

We are strict.  We plan to win every race we are in. smile

I know this is not the spirit of Lemons, but that is who we are.

That being said, if we don't have a shot at winning, we still have fun and enjoy our time!


We have NEVER had an issue getting A&D's.  We usually have 5 or 6 people that want to drive with us and space for 1 or 2.



To answer your question:  No, I would not hold myself to that same rule.  It is MY team and MY car that I built.  I set whatever rules I want.  smile  This rule is also not applicable to the "original" team members.

This rule has NEVER been enforced either.

Rob R.

Ghetto motorsports - Car #555 1980 Mazda RX7 (3x winner of BFE GP / 1x 2nd place of BFE GP...BOO!)
Car #350 78 Chevy Malibu (Least horrible Yank Tank, Heroic Fix) (Gone)
Car # 556 1987 Mazda RX7 (6th place MMC 2013) (1st place Capitol Offense 2013)