Re: The Brakes Thread...

If you want to add something that says "you can spend as much money as you want on brakes, and a new set of lines and some new brake fluid is pretty cheap," that sounds fine.  But I don't think a rule requiring racing brake pads is a good idea - it's just yet another step toward turning Lemons into typical motorsports and all the bullshit that comes with it.

The Lemons way to deal with crappy brakes is to brake earlier and slower.  Having an underpowered piece of shit that won't go fast even if you wanted it to makes this easier.  The move to running full courses without chicanes on real tracks makes it harder.

The Corvair has 4-wheel drum brakes on a single-circuit master cylinder.  We've had zero brake problems, partly because the drum brakes were designed for a car that weighed twice as much as ours, but mostly because our car is a slow-ass  piece of shit.

Re: The Brakes Thread...

unsafe_jake wrote:

The Corvair has 4-wheel drum brakes on a single-circuit master cylinder.  We've had zero brake problems, partly because the drum brakes were designed for a car that weighed twice as much as ours, but mostly because our car is a slow-ass  piece of shit.

That's why I wasn't too worried about the brakes on the Simca (also 4-wheel drums w/ a single-circuit master)--I figured we'd never get going fast enough to overtax the brakes.

Enjoy every sandwich.

Re: The Brakes Thread...

unsafe_jake wrote:

The Corvair has 4-wheel drum brakes on a single-circuit master cylinder.  We've had zero brake problems, partly because the drum brakes were designed for a car that weighed twice as much as ours, but mostly because our car is a slow-ass  piece of shit.

You are aware that the '67-'69  dual-circuit master cylinder will fit your early Corvair just fine, right? Seems like a very logical upgrade to make IMHO. You are correct about the Corvair drum brakes however, I think C&D recorded a 141 ft 60-0 braking distance with the late Corvair. However yours is a '63, isn't it? Might not hurt to swap in the '65-'69 drums if you haven't done so already, they work very well for drum brakes.

Re: The Brakes Thread...

Maybe the answer is no rubber brake hoses allowed. Seems like that's the weakest link in the system, IMO. SS lines only. At least then there would be fresh fluid in too. But then how long are SS lines good for? Do they need replacement after a certain amount of years?

I like less rules than more.

And don't get me started on 4 for $99 tires.................

Re: The Brakes Thread...

BTW one thing I think is important in brake longevity is just to not use them as much. This is an endurance race and you don't have to come flying into each corner with the brakes locked up. Since we're racing a Peugeot and you can't just walk into an auto store and buy new brake rotors we were very careful at Reno to not overheat them and it payed off as our pads were less than 50% worn when the race was over. We did use racing fluid of course and good pads (inexpensive race pads up front and good autocross pads in the back) but we tried to only use them when needed and if a corner didn't warrant hard braking we just took it easy.

Re: The Brakes Thread...

sergio wrote:

Maybe the answer is no rubber brake hoses allowed. Seems like that's the weakest link in the system, IMO. SS lines only. At least then there would be fresh fluid in too.

Wow really?  ugh

http://www.fantasticdamage.com/blog/seal.jpg

Re: The Brakes Thread...

Enough with the whole 'let's mandate new rules' mindset.

Lemons is about the barest minimum of rules to keep people from going off the deep end. And a community of racers that will try and help the clueless out while understanding that these ARE $500 cars. We do this because it's fun, not for the glory of winning, tho there are some that do...

So by some estimates the '64 Buick that I drove in Reno would have failed tech because its booster had failed. Didn't so a thing except add a little pedal effort, you could still lock the wheels at will.

As someone who's been along since almost the beginning (Altamont '07), I've seen Lemons mature and evolve into this latest incarnation.
It saddens me that it seems likely to turn into every other racing series ever with this 'we gotta have a rule for that' mindset.

But, and it's a big one, as long as it's Jay Lamm/Nick Pon are running the show it will continue to be the best event going. They know how to keep it un-serious.
Sure, it may only last another few seasons in this form, but Jay is kinda like a 21st century Bill France with that whole vision thing.

2x Volvo PV544 (RIP '63) B20 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 143 races and counting.
2/25/24

33 (edited by Mulry 2009-11-05 11:50 AM)

Re: The Brakes Thread...

X-args wrote:

... Jay is kinda like a 21st century Bill France with that whole vision thing.

That is the single meanest thing I've ever heard anybody say about Jay. I agree that he's working the vision thing, but he conducts his business in a manner that's about 180 degrees from the controlling, manipulative way that Bill France did. Put it this way: somebody shows up at Lemons with a 7/8ths size Chevelle that they built for under $500, they'll be heralded!

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: The Brakes Thread...

FreeRange wrote:
sergio wrote:

Maybe the answer is no rubber brake hoses allowed. Seems like that's the weakest link in the system, IMO. SS lines only. At least then there would be fresh fluid in too.

Wow really?  ugh

http://www.fantasticdamage.com/blog/seal.jpg

Does this mean you're done with this thread?

35 (edited by EvergreenDan 2009-11-05 04:34 PM)

Re: The Brakes Thread...

Rubber brake hoses are just fine. Sheesh. In fact, I'd rather people have new rubber hoses than new SS hoses.

Street pads are fine in some cars. We ran $25 RockAuto fronts and $18 rear at NL and had about 70% pad left in the front. Rears looked almost new. Our front bumper was untouched; our rear not so much.

Still, I would support requiring a fresh brake fluid flush, uncracked rubber hoses, no cracks to the edge of the rotor, and (say) at least half pad thickness. Some of these would take a while to check at tech, but brake fluid wouldn't.

Or make the captain initial that these maintenance items have been done and spot check at tech, maybe.

I'm opposed to unnecessary rules. OTOH, there are some super inexperienced folks, who aren't stupid, just ignorant.

Near-Orbital Space Monkeys
#528 BMW 528e 121hp Black "Saturn 5" Rocket car with orange foam flames. Sold.
#71 Yellow Fox Mustang. For sale.

Re: The Brakes Thread...

unsafe_jake wrote:

The Lemons way to deal with crappy brakes is to brake earlier and slower.  Having an underpowered piece of shit that won't go fast even if you wanted it to makes this easier.  The move to running full courses without chicanes on real tracks makes it harder.

Actually, I found in the Brava that having no chicanes seemed a lot easier, because there was much less sudden braking (admittedly it was my first time on a track on October at MSR, but I watched all the braking that went on in February).  Our brakes were TERRIBLE, and they were brand new all around (stock, of course.)  But the car wouldn't go that fast, the clutch held up, and we did all right - having no front bumper induced a little paranoia as well.  I'm just going to convert it to Spider 4-wheel disc brakes for next time, and that should reduce the massive and overwhelming fade and allow us to at least get close to locking the front wheels if we want to.

Josh Poage
Poage Ma Thoin Racing - 1981 Fiat Brava #09 - 2009 Yee-haw It's Texas
Prison Break Racing - 1986 325e #27 - 2010 Gator-o-Rama
Poage Ma Thoin Racing - 1981 Fiat Brava #09 - 2011 Heaps in the Heart of Texas

Re: The Brakes Thread...

This is from another post:

MurileeMartin wrote:
ifb_mole wrote:

I know what ya mean about $500 cars and cheaters.  I found a 1997 Maxima that had a smashed front end.  the seller was going to fix it (air bag didn't deploy) and bought a radiator but never installed it.  He advertised it ob Craigslist (had Tein springs, adjustable shocks, cold air induction, nice exhaust, etc.)  He wanted $700. I told him what we were doing and that $500 was the max and he said OK.  I advertised I was partially parting it out and sold the cat, some interior lights, one seat, the spare tire etc. and got about $140 for the stuff. 

Now WE (the team) really want to follow the spirit of the race - GO CHEAP.  I only bought really good front brake pads, the rears just new street perf ones.  Tires?  well we sprung for ONE new right front (cuzz its a FWD car and Thunderhill has 3 lefts for every right corner),  the other tires?  well I bought some used ones for $30- $50.  We will have a couple of spares.

We are going absolutely as cheap as possible.  We will tune up the car and make it as reliable as possible but still we bought a Home Depot extinguisher and "brake ducts".  Weare going cheap, Cheap CHEAP.

The spirit of the race isn't about being cheap across the board; we'd prefer that you sprang for good tires and brakes all the way around. Old and/or hard tires tend to fail, and Thunderhill is a track that's pretty unforgiving to cars that leave the track and dig into the mud.

As for your car, you should be in good shape for the BS inspection with a Maxima; we've been wanting to see more big Japanese cars and we'll be happy to have our first Lemons Maxima.

Posts like the one above are why I am concerned about some kind of brake inspection or minimum.  I think a lot of guys get some wrong impressions about Crap Can racing and try awfully hard to spend little to no money.  This helps the bank account but it gets to be a safety hazard.

I certainly am an advocate for some kind of inspection or minimum requirement.  Maybe a minimum suggestion followed by random inspections or something. 

I do realize the variety of cars that run in Lemons creates all kinds of unique challenges.  While we all try to have fun on a low budget, each vehicle has it's strengths and weaknesses.  Therefore a uniform standard on brakes regarding things like brake pads isn't going to work.

Cars like Miatas and E30 BMWs are pretty good out of the box and just need things in good working order.  A Corvair that can't get out of it's own way, may not need to worry to much.  Fox body Mustangs are questionable.  Cavaliers seem to need a lot of help.

The race format also affects demands on our cars.  A true 24 hour race is a whole different beast than the two day races.

I also think there is liability involved in establishing any kind of brake requirement.  So an inspection to make sure everything is in good working order may be the solution.  Like I have said before, it could be done before the race by shops in the area and I ain't thinking a brake chain either.  Turn in your inspection form at Tech like you would do for a DE.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: The Brakes Thread...

Sheesh, I only meant it in the trail blazin' new motorsport sense, not the France family trainwreck that happened later.


Mulry wrote:
X-args wrote:

... Jay is kinda like a 21st century Bill France with that whole vision thing.

That is the single meanest thing I've ever heard anybody say about Jay. I agree that he's working the vision thing, but he conducts his business in a manner that's about 180 degrees from the controlling, manipulative way that Bill France did. Put it this way: somebody shows up at Lemons with a 7/8ths size Chevelle that they built for under $500, they'll be heralded!

2x Volvo PV544 (RIP '63) B20 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 143 races and counting.
2/25/24

Re: The Brakes Thread...

Solracer wrote:
unsafe_jake wrote:

The Corvair has 4-wheel drum brakes on a single-circuit master cylinder.  We've had zero brake problems, partly because the drum brakes were designed for a car that weighed twice as much as ours, but mostly because our car is a slow-ass  piece of shit.

You are aware that the '67-'69  dual-circuit master cylinder will fit your early Corvair just fine, right? Seems like a very logical upgrade to make IMHO. You are correct about the Corvair drum brakes however, I think C&D recorded a 141 ft 60-0 braking distance with the late Corvair. However yours is a '63, isn't it? Might not hurt to swap in the '65-'69 drums if you haven't done so already, they work very well for drum brakes.

We have a '65.  It was the guys on the east coast with the EM.  And yeah, we even have a dual circuit master cylinder, but it's just never reached the top of the priority queue before race day.

Troy, people understand what you are saying.  They just disagree, because they percieve a cost to adding another rule.

Re: The Brakes Thread...

EvergreenDan wrote:

Rubber brake hoses are just fine. Sheesh. In fact, I'd rather people have new rubber hoses than new SS hoses.

Street pads are fine in some cars. We ran $25 RockAuto fronts and $18 rear at NL and had about 70% pad left in the front. Rears looked almost new. Our front bumper was untouched; our rear not so much.

Still, I would support requiring a fresh brake fluid flush, uncracked rubber hoses, no cracks to the edge of the rotor, and (say) at least half pad thickness. Some of these would take a while to check at tech, but brake fluid wouldn't.

Or make the captain initial that these maintenance items have been done and spot check at tech, maybe.

I'm opposed to unnecessary rules. OTOH, there are some super inexperienced folks, who aren't stupid, just ignorant.

I think this is more in tune with the course of action I favor. we have to jack up our cars now for exhaust anyway so it's not a huge deal to check brake lines. pop the lid on your master cylinder and the inspectors or have the teams bring a brake fluid checker to tech with them. would add maybe 15seconds to the whole affair, and allow more in-depth adherence to safety. discs would be easy to look for cracks but worn shoes on drums would be impossible.

I'm interested in making any kind of bolstering of safety to be as painless as possible for everyone. this seems like the most reasonable route to take.