Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

disarrae wrote:

Chumpcar teams pull in with big fancy RVs and shiny fancy trailers.

Yeah, well our support vehicle for our '67 SAAB 96 is a '68 SAAB 96 V4 De Luxe and we don't even bring a trailer.  I guess that'll show them.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

52

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

disarrae wrote:

Chumpcar teams pull in with big fancy RVs and shiny fancy trailers.  We felt out classed with our 88 F250 and car on a flatbed.

If you have a fast Class A car and a tidy team, you'll be in the 20%.  If you're a Class C car, you'll be DFL.

But, go try it, see if you like it.

Plenty of Lemons teams pull up with big fancy RVs and shiny fancy trailers too.  Of course that still can bring entertainment.  Everyone in my area is still laughing about the big Fancy RV with their big fancy grill setup  and tented dinning area with candles, and with the guy cooking with his chefs outfit on who dropped a steak off the grill into the dirt and then just picked it up finished cooking it and server it to one of them.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

disarrae wrote:

Chumpcar teams pull in with big fancy RVs and shiny fancy trailers.  We felt out classed with our 88 F250 and car on a flatbed.

If you have a fast Class A car and a tidy team, you'll be in the 20%.  If you're a Class C car, you'll be DFL.

But, go try it, see if you like it.

I would reclassify to add any class A or B car that had zero mechanicals would easily be in the top 20% all the way to podium for a tidy class A act, class C would be lapped repeatedly but potentially could find someone to dice with.

Who cares if someone shows up in a NASCAR hauler, they are usually not contenders, we haul open.

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

I have driven both, for better or worse Chump has a more SRS BZNS vibe around the paddock.  I personally would say worse, but different strokes and all that.  Certainly less fun for those at the track not racing.

The total lack of enforcement in response to contact that I have observed at Chump is my least favorite aspect.  The car I drive has been hit multiple times in every Chump race (sometimes due to the fault of our drivers, but usually not) and I don't recall them black flagging either party in any case.

I personally really like Lemons, but they only run CMP around here, which I like, but the Chump choice of tracks in the SE is FAR superior...

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

*shrugs*

I like running the Chumps Series.

1980 Chevy Malibu Classic

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

With the intention of starting to hit the great road courses in the Country, we ran Chump at TWS this past weekend...  Here are my thoughts...

1.  The organization atmosphere is more business-like; they're good people; the guys knew our car from Lemons, and were pretty cool.  It won't be the same banter that I enjoy with Phil or with Scott (who's still convinced we have some magic motor), but straightforward enough.
2.  The paddock area - amore of a grown-up, business-like atmosphere; people are friendly and cordial, less silliness than Lemons.  Those that have silliness into them (like us) came from here.
3.  The racing..  Here I found one big difference..  Some of the fast  people at CCWS were aggressive.  I mean, stupidly aggressive, who would have gotten  BF'd here immediately.  Some slow people were aggressively blocking.  After a number of frustrating laps, they got black-flagged.
4.  Black Flags - Not so many, but, for example, if you put 4 off a couple of times in an hour, they will BF you; and, if you hold up someone through the technical sections only to motor away on the long straight, they will BF you.

In summary, we had fun, and will select one far off track per year to go to.  First on our (my) list is Laguna Seca.  However, if we were to run a course that both series offer, (sears Point) we'd probably opt for the more relaxed, sillier atmosphere of Lemons (all other things being equal).

Cheers
Rich B.
Chief Apologist, Z-Wrecks.

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

Does this year's version of the Chump registration actually work?  While I have never had a single problem with a Lemons registration, I have never successfully registered with Chump.  At every race they either write me a check or I write them a check after 10 minutes of calculations at the track.  I'm in the software business and I've seen my fair share of bad software but if I ever tried to foist a POS like last years deal on a customer, I'd be out of a job.  2 car registration was a nightmare.  I'd like to kick the clown that wrote that turd square in the ding-ding.  Everyone was scared of John's reaction to complaints about it but boy did entering a race in the last 2 years blow.  ( i can't remember what it was 3 years ago)

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

This year was not any better.  There are complaints about it as well.

They make you pay a deposit for all of your races for the coming year in DECEMBER!  It kinds sucks!

Rob R.

Ghetto motorsports - Car #555 1980 Mazda RX7 (3x winner of BFE GP / 1x 2nd place of BFE GP...BOO!)
Car #350 78 Chevy Malibu (Least horrible Yank Tank, Heroic Fix) (Gone)
Car # 556 1987 Mazda RX7 (6th place MMC 2013) (1st place Capitol Offense 2013)

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

wvumtnbkr wrote:

This year was not any better.  There are complaints about it as well.

They make you pay a deposit for all of your races for the coming year in DECEMBER!  It kinds sucks!

Rob R.

There is a misunderstanding, you are not alone on this one, you are able to pay your deposit(s) as early as December

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

so, in our parlance, the databases open for all races in december, and they'll start taking money at that time for the entire season.


if you are wanting to make sure you get your preferred number....this is your opportunity.

Team OK-Speed
Regularly losing in Class A
Soon to start losing in Class C

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

Actually, since I only race Chump at the "premier" events, I DO have to register and pay my deposit early.  (granted, I am doing Nelsons this year which is NOT a premier event.)

I realize that I do not NEED to pay the deposit, but if you want to be guaranteed a spot, that is the only way.  VIR 24 was specifically listed as a "might want to get the deposit in ASAP".


Psychoboy:  There is something up with the numbers as well.  I thought they were permanent in your "division or whatever" but if you travel to do a race, you may have to change your number.  This may all have changed as well.

Rob R.

Ghetto motorsports - Car #555 1980 Mazda RX7 (3x winner of BFE GP / 1x 2nd place of BFE GP...BOO!)
Car #350 78 Chevy Malibu (Least horrible Yank Tank, Heroic Fix) (Gone)
Car # 556 1987 Mazda RX7 (6th place MMC 2013) (1st place Capitol Offense 2013)

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

The registration system seems to be better this year than last year in Chump.  The regional directors now have the tools to fix/change/update stuff easier than in the past.

I was at the TWS Chump race last weekend.  The team I was with with drove their car to the race, raced it and then home.  That race had the complete end to end spectrum of racers.  There was a mega semi-based toter home RV with a matching car hauler.  On the other end, it looks like the race participants had every available U-haul trailers in Texas.   

I would say that easily half of the teams (52 cars took the green) were from Lemons.   Many of them have their Chump number panels on removable aluminum (or steel)panels they could take off. 

FYI, you don't need to pay a deposit until 90 days before the race.  We also don't pay either the deposit or the rest of the fee if we have any doubts on being ready.  The $100 late fee comes into play then.

I think the reality is that in the paddock on race day no one really cares if a car/team primarily races Chump or Lemons.  The us vs. them seems to be mostly an on line topic.

Tubby

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

Agreed.  Every chump race I have attended has a majority of teams that run both.  Our team has more of a chump Outlook but we like the organization and familiarity of Lemons better.  Plus, most of our friends don't run much chump for some reason.

Ghetto motorsports - Car #555 1980 Mazda RX7 (3x winner of BFE GP / 1x 2nd place of BFE GP...BOO!)
Car #350 78 Chevy Malibu (Least horrible Yank Tank, Heroic Fix) (Gone)
Car # 556 1987 Mazda RX7 (6th place MMC 2013) (1st place Capitol Offense 2013)

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

Tubby wrote:

The us vs. them seems to be mostly an on line topic.

Mostly an online topic among certain teams.  It's a vocal online minority of 'serious racers.'

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

Ive never understood the whole "chump is for the serious crapcan racers" thing. When I am running 3rd in Lemons, am I a lackadaisical racer?

Team Lost in the Dark
Winner " I got screwed" and "Jay's dream car"
2012 Gulf region champs

66 (edited by psychoboy 2013-06-28 10:54 AM)

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

some people do not see the difference between a LeMon like The Homer and a LeMon like your Futura.  so far as they are concerned, all Lemons are art cars that are driven spiritedly.

the fact that you are a driving an unappreciated fox-derivative instead of an E30 proves you are not really "serious", just like the E30-based Homer isn't "serious".....

Team OK-Speed
Regularly losing in Class A
Soon to start losing in Class C

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

psychoboy wrote:

some people do not see the difference between a LeMon like The Homer and a LeMon like your Futura.  so far as they are concerned, all Lemons are art cars that are driven spiritedly.

the fact that you are a driving an unappreciated fox-derivative instead of an E30 proves you are not really "serious", just like the E30-based Homer isn't "serious".....

As good of an explaination as any. We've been practically begged to race CC, and I ve gone to events to see what the big deal is. I dont get it, and it isnt worth any more to me to run there over Lemons. With the extra it takes to make the car pass thier tech, it doesnt appeal to me.

Team Lost in the Dark
Winner " I got screwed" and "Jay's dream car"
2012 Gulf region champs

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

my exact feelings on the subject.

i'd love more gulf area races, i'd love to race my home track, and i don't really care how well my car might do. but i'm leery of chasing a rulebook, and i'm extra leery of the incidental contact that series sees.

true, our miata has been run over by a pair of fox-bodies in Lemons, but all three drivers involved (same guy both times for us) tried to stay out of it because they knew the penalties for not doing so.

Team OK-Speed
Regularly losing in Class A
Soon to start losing in Class C

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

psychoboy wrote:

my exact feelings on the subject.

i'd love more gulf area races, i'd love to race my home track, and i don't really care how well my car might do. but i'm leery of chasing a rulebook, and i'm extra leery of the incidental contact that series sees.

true, our miata has been run over by a pair of fox-bodies in Lemons, but all three drivers involved (same guy both times for us) tried to stay out of it because they knew the penalties for not doing so.

The incidental contact was a convern for us, and thus the visit to the track to see how dirty the racing was, and I didnt see any while I was there, and most of the cars that were coming in after the first day didnt have any "extra" damage or tire marks to speak of. Not that I am defending the driving, I just didnt see any accidental contact, or really any while I was there. I do know that it happens, but cant say that it happens frequently, from what I saw for the few hours I was there.

And on that subject, we have been getting a LOT more picky on our drivers that we have A&D for us, and have a few black listed. One of them we really wanted to give extra chances, but he proved over and over he wasnt capable of running clean fast laps, and was getting black flags for offs way too often. With that, our miata nor our fairmont have had any scuffs or marks on the track.

Team Lost in the Dark
Winner " I got screwed" and "Jay's dream car"
2012 Gulf region champs

70 (edited by ninjacoco 2013-06-28 03:24 PM)

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

tl;dr version--do it.

I just tried it out. Sort of. We're the team at TWS who got punted out in the first hour with a mother-of-coco, we're-going-to-need-an-entirely-new-car, race-ending hit. Apparently there were a few talking-tos and crackdowns after we left, but looking at the impending car swap/new safety gear/repair bills meant that I wasn't in a place to spend extra cash on the second hotel night, plus the short turnaround for the 24 hour Lemons race this September meant I needed to be looking on Craigslist for a new shell...yesterday. No time!

So, with that grain of salt taken, here's my opinion on how I think the two series compare.

There's less traffic in Chump and you can get going up to higher speeds on some tracks accordingly. Just like Lemons, some teams can control their cars and others...not so much. That's always the peril of running in a series that doesn't have any real kind of prior driving/testing/licensing requirements for any of its drivers, though. Some people like the open run room, and others don't--personally, I feel like it's a different challenge. I like playing in traffic, and I like seeing what I can do on an open track. I didn't get to drive the Chump event we entered because dead car, but I don't necessarily see the limited number of participants as a bad thing. That's all up to personal preference.

There's less of a party atmosphere at Chump, but it's still fun. The people--in person--are very, very similar to the people who run Lemons. Shoot, a good chunk of us run both series.

Too bad there's not a mute button on forum fanboys--if I had only read the forums and had never been to an event in person, I'd have been a whole lot iffier about running Chump. A lot of the Chump fans tend to like that it's more about the racing than the spectacle and I understand that--I have fun just doing the racing part--but the fanboys who get super snotty about it are arrrrgggghhh. I rarely get that same attitude in person, though--and never from someone I don't know. In person, it's more "welcome!" and "thanks for trying this out!"--as it should be!

(Needs to be said: let's not ignore that Lemons has a small contingent of equally annoying fanboys, either. And they're also aaaaarrrggghhh.)

The level of driving skill (just like in Lemons) seems heavily dependent on who shows up. The Harris Hill races I'd been to before last weekend (usually on flag/tow/paddock duty of some sort, not racing) were a really chill bunch that for the most part, either knew how to drive and conduct themselves on a racetrack or picked it up really quickly. TWS last weekend? Granted, it was the first hour of the day where there's always a lot of derp as people figure out the track and the flow of things, but I saw a lot more blown flags and overly aggressive driving. It sounds like it got much better after we left, though, as stiffer penalties got doled out for the "y'all should really know better or OSB" mistakes.

To be honest, I like Lemons' "scare the crap out of everyone about the possibility of being sent home before they even head out on track" approach there. The four penalties = trailer in Lemons is a bit heavy-handed, but it seems to work. Either way, I wish the more cautionary conversations that happened about flags and contact after the morning's problems at Chump had taken place before the race began.

As far as penalties go, I'm happy to do a princess wave all around the paddock as I'm saran-wrapped to my car, but the guys who don't tend to prefer Chump's no-nonsense, time-based approach. I like the idea of not having to worry if I drop a couple wheels off or even have a four-off that I'm going to get flagged in. Shoot, I even like the idea that I wouldn't be black flagged for some other guy nudging our car--I wish Lemons would only bring in the guy who's at fault in minor taps where both cars can keep going, too. Unfortunately, this seems to lead to more aggressive driving in some cases at Chump because "woooo no penalties for the little stuff," but the faster teams seem to realize that the pavement (and not spinning out) is where it's at, and they do at least seem to make an effort to get out-of-control teams to dial it back as the day goes on.

Safety gear requirements differ a little. The biggest issue is the window nets. I'd rather trade the extra risk of flying limbs in a rollover for not having a visibility-limiting window net. Chump's gone a little net happy (even mandating roof nets on convertibles, where the easiest way to GET OUT! of a car ASAP is often through the roof!), but eh. They're mandating fire suppression systems next year--it's an added expense, but I think that one's actually a good idea. Lemons seems to have stricter cage requirements--our back diagonals in the smooshed car are now illegal in Lemons because they extended to the back of the 944's hatch, past the rear wheels. So, no love lost for that piece getting destroyed last weekend.

Chump has no bribing, so your penalty laps are your penalty laps. I actually thought their system of car valuation was a lot more straightforward than Lemons for the more popular cars to bring (at least on paper) but meh--I stick to beat-up hoopties that belong at a Lemons race and we're not really competitive on laps, either. We're here for the track time, the people and an enjoyable weekend of hoonin'. We only bribe at Lemons for the lulz.

Chump doesn't have the diversity of cars that Lemons gets. There were a few subjective-ish prizes, like the "Spirit of Chump" one that my friends in the TR6 got, but there's a lot less attention paid to crazy builds, fun themes, or the like. Again--not necessarily a bad thing, just different. We even partially themed the car and planned to save the "full retard/judgebait" version of our theme for September. (We'll still probably do that, just on a different shell. Ja.) So, an example--the same VW Type 3 that won IOE over here was really just a slow car over in Chump. That's great if you're just doing the race because racecar time, but maybe not so great if you're trying to compete for the series' top prize--you'll want to bring something quicker if you're after Chump's big prize. That being said, the series attracts car nerds just like Lemons does, so the guys who appreciated that car for what it was still thought it was cool.

So, ignore the fanboys who take their own personal preferences as the stone cold truth gospel. If it sounds like an enjoyable weekend, try it out. If it doesn't, then don't. Both are a pretty good time (well, unless your car gets totalled early on--that'll ruin it regardless of where you are) for a tracktard with a beater racecar.

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

psychoboy wrote:

my exact feelings on the subject.

i'd love more gulf area races, i'd love to race my home track, and i don't really care how well my car might do. but i'm leery of chasing a rulebook, and i'm extra leery of the incidental contact that series sees.

true, our miata has been run over by a pair of fox-bodies in Lemons, but all three drivers involved (same guy both times for us) tried to stay out of it because they knew the penalties for not doing so.

I think they must have heard you on the rulebook changes as they are locking down the new one for three years.

Tubby

Re: The other series. Talk me in or out of trying it out.

w placed 21 out of 84 at VIR in a very slow 2.3 na mustang, which is about how it finished at Shenandoah (top 25%)
The following year, w/ a 2.3T, we finished 27 out of over 100 with time out for a water pump change and a starter failure   

Your car will finish top 25% with no mechanicals

definitely a different vibe at chump.  If Lemons did VIR, we'd go w/ them.

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!