Topic: Door required.
Ive got a Jeep Cherokee (I know, terrible idea) for my first Lemons car. I bought it with no doors, after reading rules I suits required. But not OE doors, can I build a frame and skins? They’ll have an accessible handle.
The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Newcomers → Door required.
Ive got a Jeep Cherokee (I know, terrible idea) for my first Lemons car. I bought it with no doors, after reading rules I suits required. But not OE doors, can I build a frame and skins? They’ll have an accessible handle.
I would say if that is your passenger door, you MIGHT get away with it if you show up with something homemade but you'd likely be told to go buy a junkyard door for the second race.
I would say a homemade driver door may be a little more difficult to get through tech. If you REALLY are too cheap to go buy a driver door, and want to go the fabricated door route, you may be best to just weld it up/closed.
Pure speculation.
The only "right" answer is to email the head of tech and get his ruling.
Just order some door skins, you can tack weld the passenger side on and rig a hinge on the drivers side. The skins will save you the time and effort it takes to remove all the un-necessary (and heavy) extra metal. Is this a 2 door? Racing a Jeep isn't a bad idea. A 2 door 2wd 4.0l jeep would haul ash. You can get it very light. If it is 4wd I'd look for a 2wd and swap the front end out along with the trans.
I would say a homemade driver door may be a little more difficult to get through tech.
Particularly as the entity behind all this is literally called DriversDoor Inc., there's a chance they may be inclined to take that item seriously.
The only "right" answer is to email the head of tech and get his ruling.
This is the correct answer. Contact John Pagel: pagel@24hoursoflemons.com. My guess is he will strongly prefer seeing OE doors, or at least what's left of them after (optionally) gutting their interiors to make the cage as wide as possible.
You have to have doors, hood and fenders, the OE doors have crash/side impact protection. I would be very skeptical of any fabricated doors if it came through tech especially on the driver side
You have to have doors, hood and fenders, the OE doors have crash/side impact protection. I would be very skeptical of any fabricated doors if it came through tech especially on the driver side
our doors are just skins, as are many others. To install a proper cage with good door bars you need all that stuff removed. Our door bars extend outwards almost to the skin. The crash structure in a door is nothing compared to 2 bars of 1.75 DOM...we might even add another.
chaase wrote:You have to have doors, hood and fenders, the OE doors have crash/side impact protection. I would be very skeptical of any fabricated doors if it came through tech especially on the driver side
our doors are just skins, as are many others. To install a proper cage with good door bars you need all that stuff removed. Our door bars extend outwards almost to the skin. The crash structure in a door is nothing compared to 2 bars of 1.75 DOM...we might even add another.
I am more concerned about his comment of building doors and frames, and not using an OE door with some of the guts removed.
I assume there is some reason you don't want an actual door that OPENS?
The "Duke Boys" might have made it look easy climbing in and out of the windows of the General Lee, but don't forget they weren't wearing a helmet and HANS while doing it. It ain't fun.
Mr.Yuck wrote:chaase wrote:You have to have doors, hood and fenders, the OE doors have crash/side impact protection. I would be very skeptical of any fabricated doors if it came through tech especially on the driver side
our doors are just skins, as are many others. To install a proper cage with good door bars you need all that stuff removed. Our door bars extend outwards almost to the skin. The crash structure in a door is nothing compared to 2 bars of 1.75 DOM...we might even add another.
I am more concerned about his comment of building doors and frames, and not using an OE door with some of the guts removed.
yeah I would just go to a yard or order skins, they can't be that expensive.
To install a proper cage with good door bars you need all that stuff removed.
No, no you don't. I have two cars caged right now that have the doors 100% intact and more than sufficient door bars. Does gutting the door make it easier? Often times yes, but it's not required. There's also the flip side where leaving the OEM crash structure means that minor hits have a chance of never even touching the cage because the door took the hit, which could save a lot of worry over if a cage is compromised from smaller hits.
I also agree that having doors that open makes your life so much easier. Working on the car, getting drivers in and out, pulling the seat, any of that stuff. Yes you can cut the door down a little so the opening is larger than the OEM window, but being able to open the door and reach through the bottom of the door bars to get at things is worth it. Belts expire, wiring goes wrong, mechanicals break, at some point you'll have to do something to the car where you'll wish the door still opened to make it a little easier.
I assume there is some reason you don't want an actual door that OPENS?
The "Duke Boys" might have made it look easy climbing in and out of the windows of the General Lee, but don't forget they weren't wearing a helmet and HANS while doing it. It ain't fun.
I agree that is why on our new car the drivers door will be hinged, but it will still be gutted. FWIW if you run NASCAR door bars, it is basically the same thing as climbing out the window. Our drivers door was recessed to allow for better ingress and egress. Just trying to unfold yourself from a full containment seat is a challenge enough.
Mr.Yuck wrote:To install a proper cage with good door bars you need all that stuff removed.
No, no you don't. I have two cars caged right now that have the doors 100% intact and more than sufficient door bars. Does gutting the door make it easier? Often times yes, but it's not required. There's also the flip side where leaving the OEM crash structure means that minor hits have a chance of never even touching the cage because the door took the hit, which could save a lot of worry over if a cage is compromised from smaller hits.
I also agree that having doors that open makes your life so much easier. Working on the car, getting drivers in and out, pulling the seat, any of that stuff. Yes you can cut the door down a little so the opening is larger than the OEM window, but being able to open the door and reach through the bottom of the door bars to get at things is worth it. Belts expire, wiring goes wrong, mechanicals break, at some point you'll have to do something to the car where you'll wish the door still opened to make it a little easier.
If we left the doors complete your arm would be right on the cage. That would be no fun with contact, which we did and totaled the car. W/o those few inches our driver would have been hurt. You want body parts as far away from the cage as possible. We have also had the passenger door hit, if the bar was in the door would have folded up, on smack with the palm and you couldn't even tell. There are advantages to both. We chose losing weight (about 30lbs a door) and safety.
As is always the case, it is car dependent. The Saab is roomy inside and there is plenty of space without gutting the doors. But saying "you have to gut the doors to have a safe cage" is dishonest, because it depends on your car, your cage design, and your drivers.
If we left the doors complete your arm would be right on the cage.
This is why your use of an absolute was not the right one here. Every car is different. Please be more careful with such statements. Our team also has two of five cages we have built (for ourselves) where the doors are completly intact...one with working electric windows. In one, your arms is a good 8" above the highest door bar...so totally fine.
Mr.Yuck wrote:If we left the doors complete your arm would be right on the cage.
This is why your use of an absolute was not the right one here. Every car is different. Please be more careful with such statements. Our team also has two of five cages we have built (for ourselves) where the doors are completly intact...one with working electric windows. In one, your arms is a good 8" above the highest door bar...so totally fine.
I get cars are different. But why would you want your arm 8" above the door bar? Not bashing but if you got hit hard in the side where's all the door metal/material/glass going to go? I'll change my statement to...I want the cage to extend as far out towards the door skin as possible. This increases your safety zone.
OnkelUdo wrote:Mr.Yuck wrote:If we left the doors complete your arm would be right on the cage.
This is why your use of an absolute was not the right one here. Every car is different. Please be more careful with such statements. Our team also has two of five cages we have built (for ourselves) where the doors are completly intact...one with working electric windows. In one, your arms is a good 8" above the highest door bar...so totally fine.
I get cars are different. But why would you want your arm 8" above the door bar? Not bashing but if you got hit hard in the side where's all the door metal/material/glass going to go? I'll change my statement to...I want the cage to extend as far out towards the door skin as possible. This increases your safety zone.
Its a minivan. We want the door bars where the vehicles on track will impact it, not where it impedes egress for little or no gain.
Bottom of the seat is also about 9" above the floor which gives us excellent visibility.
Mr.Yuck wrote:OnkelUdo wrote:This is why your use of an absolute was not the right one here. Every car is different. Please be more careful with such statements. Our team also has two of five cages we have built (for ourselves) where the doors are completly intact...one with working electric windows. In one, your arms is a good 8" above the highest door bar...so totally fine.
I get cars are different. But why would you want your arm 8" above the door bar? Not bashing but if you got hit hard in the side where's all the door metal/material/glass going to go? I'll change my statement to...I want the cage to extend as far out towards the door skin as possible. This increases your safety zone.
Its a minivan. We want the door bars where the vehicles on track will impact it, not where it impedes egress for little or no gain.
Bottom of the seat is also about 9" above the floor which gives us excellent visibility.
ahhhh a minivan... TFF ok thought you were in a car. our seat is about an inch off the floor so our melons are far enough from the cage to pass tech.
OnkelUdo wrote:Mr.Yuck wrote:I get cars are different. But why would you want your arm 8" above the door bar? Not bashing but if you got hit hard in the side where's all the door metal/material/glass going to go? I'll change my statement to...I want the cage to extend as far out towards the door skin as possible. This increases your safety zone.
Its a minivan. We want the door bars where the vehicles on track will impact it, not where it impedes egress for little or no gain.
Bottom of the seat is also about 9" above the floor which gives us excellent visibility.
ahhhh a minivan... TFF ok thought you were in a car. our seat is about an inch off the floor so our melons are far enough from the cage to pass tech.
Our 47 Plymouth is not much different for height but the door situation is different. No glass but also only about 1.5" to gain with Nascar bars and even then would have to breach the (beefy) b-pillar. It has xbars as most sedans do.
This was why I made my "warning" about absolutes. Lemons by nature has diverse vehicles and cage requrements to make those vehicles work. You were quoting from a "sporty car" frame of mind. This guy might have a 1980's F150 or a Rolls Royce or 1972 Cadillac Eldarado. The basics of a cage that passes tech do not change but things like "you cannot do adequate protection for XYZ" do change. The Imperial a fellow racer gave me has like 4" elbow to x-bar with a standard seat.
Edit: Reread the original post and it is a Cherokee. If a 2-door, he has to make the very tough decision of breaching the b-pillar or doing bowed out x-bars if it is a 4-door. 2-door, yeah, I would vote for real NASCAR bars but 4-door I would not.
yeah that is why I asked him if it was 2 or 4 door. FWIW there was a very fast 2 door 2wd that ran in Lemons a while ago...maybe it was Chump, not sure.
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