26 (edited by Lemon_Newton-Metre 2021-09-16 11:28 AM)

Re: Claims in the Spirit

Jimmy wrote:

To be completely fair - Any car weighing 4000 lbs equipted with a V8 of 400 or more cubic inches with less that 200 HP  should get a two hour head start.

Just saying

Four extra hours of drive time for Big American Iron over the weekend?

I though the goal was to take the checkered flag...

27 (edited by Lemon_Newton-Metre 2021-09-20 02:41 PM)

Re: Claims in the Spirit

I was curious about the comments about AER by the Fit team member. I see that AER was at NJMP shortly after the Lemons race, so I did a little looking.

I don't see a Honda Fit in the field (I was thinking the team wanted to shake down the car for that race). And as a way of comparison, I'd be interested in what the best lap, average, and mean, lap times were for several of the pointy-end teams at Lemons NJMP this year.

So:
AER 2021:
Event
AER at NJMP Lightning 2021
Dates
June 25, 2021 to June 27, 2021

Qualifying times
(Fastest laps):
1:13.776 to 1:24.590
over the ENTIRE FIELD of 34

[EDIT:snip]

///
The only Honda Fit in the AER historical records of 509 vehicles is a 2013 K24 K24 ; it's on the first page, in 53rd place, on the 6-page lifetime car lap list:

53 TCS Racing#57 - 2013 Honda Fit K24 3759(laps) 182(stints), started@ AER at NCM 2017

Re: Claims in the Spirit

mharrell wrote:

I would rather see overspending addressed through a more aggressive assignment of penalty laps than is sometimes currently the case,

Agree. I would love to see a race start with the top half of the cars there in the negative like it really should be.

But I say that as someone who never plans on winning.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Claims in the Spirit

rb92673 wrote:

It is already in the rules:

1.4: Claiming Race: At the end of the competition, the Organizers–and nobody else, you lazy, better-car-wantin’ bastids–may elect to purchase any vehicle from its owner(s) for $500. In 80 races and counting, we’ve claimed cars precisely twice. Don’t piss us off so much that we raise that to three.

Claimed AND not collected!

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Claims in the Spirit

chaase wrote:
majo wrote:

I would be against any kind of claiming rule.  For any amount.  There's just too much time, sweat and love that goes into building a decent, reliable, safe and relatively quick Lemons car, especially if it starts out as none of these things.  The cars that are truly fast usually get penalty laps or the teams eventually gravitate to other series.

Also, like others have said, speed isn't the main decider of who wins.  We've won overall in a car that wasn't in the top 20% lap time and B ( 6th overall ) in a car that is smack in the middle of overall speed.  Long stints, quick pit stops and no black flags is more important than speed.

/agree

The bigger problem I have is people showing up with cars that have no theme whatsoever. Too many cars are showing up that have nothing but numbers.

Honestly, after doing two themes that were completely ignored by the judges and the world at large, Guess who's showing up in a worn out green car with just numbers next month?

We have a plan to do a re-theme over winter, but honestly, don't expect to get it, we're trippling down on esoteric just out of spite now. I don't even Know if I'll get the references!

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Claims in the Spirit

Conversely, you could just give out bonus laps to the less fortunate like they did with our old TR7 (BTW, I think that was the first and last time they did that)

https://jalopnik.com/arse-freeze-a-palo … ph-5119162

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Claims in the Spirit

mharrell wrote:

while shouting a continuous stream of obscenities

I just want to see this part.

Re: Claims in the Spirit

I've been judging for 9 years now and I have only ever thought—after the fact—about claiming ONE (1) car. That car doesn't race Lemons anymore anyway, so it all worked out.

As for the Fit: I find it surprising that one of them would say they liked AER better. At least two of their drivers were the core guys on the old Bill Danger and the Hazzards team who generally beat people's brains in with a stock Honda Accord for years until it got wrecked. That car—relative to the field at the time—was quicker than the Fit and it was most certainly not quick. The car itself, it's reasonably well assembled from two (three?) cars that were crashed at AER, but it's not remotely straight and probably looks nicer than it is. They were not especially trying to be competitive and kind of backed into a win because—as mentioned elsewhere—they're efficient in the pits and they have three drivers who all run consistent lap times without putting the car in bad spots. They would have been 10-15 laps behind the Mome Rath car if it hadn't broken the rear subframe and 5-10 laps behind the Misfortune Cookie Civic if they hadn't had to swap an axle. They had the only car that didn't have a mechanical issue all weekend and they stayed out of penalty. Turns out...

All that said, anyone who whined at me about a Dodge Daytona winning Class B at NJMP, please take a step back and have some perspective on that.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: Claims in the Spirit

therood wrote:

All that said, anyone who whined at me about a Dodge Daytona winning Class B at NJMP, please take a step back and have some perspective on that.

I need to see that car again, I haven't in a few years. But the last time I saw it they had done a great job upgrading that car to be something great. I remember lapping them a bunch in their first few races when we still had our abysmally bad daytona. I data dumped all the reliability stuff I'd learned, then they leapfrogged our car by miles with the suspension and brake upgrades they did. I'd love to see the current setup just for kicks and giggles.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Claims in the Spirit

Wendell34 wrote:
mharrell wrote:

while shouting a continuous stream of obscenities

I just want to see this part.

If you're prepared to settle for "uttering" instead of "shouting" then all that's required is a need for me to work under the dash ever since the cage was installed.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP

36 (edited by SwarlesInCharge 2021-09-20 06:56 PM)

Re: Claims in the Spirit

Judges don't really seem to worry about cheaters or big pockets that much, maybe because those guys usually get beat by teams with better reliability and determination (and make less dodgy passes). The judges 100% want to see dumb cars which don't belong on the track racing and then take pictures of said cars looking out of place, along with silly memes. If people want fast cars, the secret is to make it entertaining - with an AMC body on a Z3 or a Cadillac coupe body over a camero. Keep clean and avoid black flags and everyone is happy. They grumble about cars that are natural at being fast because they are boring more than anything.


No matter how cheap the car initially is, it is a decently large investment after cage / steel prices these days, seat, fire suppression, harness - as well as a lot of time. Our car is a boring and slow BMW with cut springs, but I'd be pissed if someone tried to take it for $1500 (and others would jump to a series where that didn't happen). But no one wants to deal with that on their end either.


Some people are into themes, some people are just into cheap racing with fun people. We re-theme every couple of years, dress the part for the first time, and sometimes having to explain it (Mr. McGibblets). The other events we'll just show and race. But whether or not everyone is into it, themes do at least help discourage the people who don't fit the personality type (enjoyable with race with / against). I don't really worry about a team that is faster or spend more on gas / tires / suspension as long as they make good decisions and give others space, because even quick cars are less extreme than the HPDE champions who like to rave.

-Robert, Party Sheep Racing
The Jerry Lundegaard GMAC Financing Award, Joliet 2013 [Cutlass Ciera w/ Iron Duke]
Eta E30: Joliet Fall '15, Gingerman Spring '16, Joliet Summer '16, Gingerman Spring '17, NCM '17, Gingerman Summer '21, NCM '21

37 (edited by chaase 2021-09-21 06:07 AM)

Re: Claims in the Spirit

TheEngineer wrote:
therood wrote:

All that said, anyone who whined at me about a Dodge Daytona winning Class B at NJMP, please take a step back and have some perspective on that.

I need to see that car again, I haven't in a few years. But the last time I saw it they had done a great job upgrading that car to be something great. I remember lapping them a bunch in their first few races when we still had our abysmally bad daytona. I data dumped all the reliability stuff I'd learned, then they leapfrogged our car by miles with the suspension and brake upgrades they did. I'd love to see the current setup just for kicks and giggles.


It runs really well now. The car suffered in Class C for ages because it was terribad. After it finally won Class C, they did a lot of work and turned it into what it is now. They were given Class B since they won C. They've won B so its time for A. its normal Lemons progression.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Claims in the Spirit

chaase wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:
therood wrote:

All that said, anyone who whined at me about a Dodge Daytona winning Class B at NJMP, please take a step back and have some perspective on that.

I need to see that car again, I haven't in a few years. But the last time I saw it they had done a great job upgrading that car to be something great. I remember lapping them a bunch in their first few races when we still had our abysmally bad daytona. I data dumped all the reliability stuff I'd learned, then they leapfrogged our car by miles with the suspension and brake upgrades they did. I'd love to see the current setup just for kicks and giggles.


It runs really well now. The car suffered in Class C for ages because it was terribad. After it finally won Class C, they did a lot of work and turned it into what it is now. They were given Class B since they won C. They've won B so its time for A. its normal Lemons progression.

Oh I know that's the progression. Was just commenting that I haven't seen it in years and I'd love to see what they've done with it. Just haven't gotten to in a while. Wasn't complaining about them at all.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Claims in the Spirit

TheEngineer wrote:
chaase wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:

I need to see that car again, I haven't in a few years. But the last time I saw it they had done a great job upgrading that car to be something great. I remember lapping them a bunch in their first few races when we still had our abysmally bad daytona. I data dumped all the reliability stuff I'd learned, then they leapfrogged our car by miles with the suspension and brake upgrades they did. I'd love to see the current setup just for kicks and giggles.


It runs really well now. The car suffered in Class C for ages because it was terribad. After it finally won Class C, they did a lot of work and turned it into what it is now. They were given Class B since they won C. They've won B so its time for A. its normal Lemons progression.

Oh I know that's the progression. Was just commenting that I haven't seen it in years and I'd love to see what they've done with it. Just haven't gotten to in a while. Wasn't complaining about them at all.

I know but other people have complained about it and I was passing on the history.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

40 (edited by rozap_ 2021-09-23 10:13 PM)

Re: Claims in the Spirit

Claims rules seem kind of brutal. There are a lot of blood sweat and tears involved in building a car, maybe I'm just a sentimental person though.

It was just my first race, but I was surprised at the lack of penalty laps. I think at ORP there was only one car which got like 5 penalty laps, and no one else got any. We aren't playing to win though, so it didn't really bother us. The judging is entirely subjective, which I like, but I wonder if the penalty lap lever could get pulled more often. I had expected to get some penalty laps because we actually spent around $900, but we didn't even go through a BS inspection because the judges saw "Fiat X1/9" and immediately put us in class C.

$500 is also less money now than it was 10 years ago.

BSOD Racing, 1987 Fiat X1/9

Re: Claims in the Spirit

My two cents:

There are other ways to make a car fast besides writing a blank check. Claimer rules do not differentiate between excessive budgets and creative engineering. I am very familiar with be scrutinized for having an ultra-cheaty BMW, but the reality is that I have a below-average amount of money investing into my cart / build compared to other teams.

Claim:
...but you race cheaty BMW!

Reality:
It's a 20+ year old E39 5-series. Nobody wants a 5 series because they're "big and heavy" so you can buy them for <$1000 all day long. Sell the seats and scrap the unused components and you'll probably make back close to what you paid for the car. Oh yeah, a race prepped E39 is only 200-300 lbs heavier than a race prepped E46.

Claim:
Ok then, explain that cheaty ass LS swap !

Reality:
Go to any pick-n-pull on a $99 engine-pull-Sunday and yank one of the million Chevy truck motors that litter the yards. If you've clever and patient enough, you might just found the rare and elusive disposable GM SUV that came with an aluminum block LS-based V8. Again, for $99 and a little bit of sweat equity, it's yours for the taking!

Claim:
Yeah, but like... computers and shit

Reality:
$99 gets your EVERYTHING. That includes the wire harness and ECU. Remember that part when I said this requires creativity? Sit down with a Mitchell's wiring guide and pin that bitch out. Yeah it sucks and yeah it takes time... but there's this place called the 'internet' (ever heard of it before?) that has all these wonderful resources on how to program these ECUs to do whatever you want them to. In fact, there is a FREE open source programmer available for earlier GM Truck based LS controllers that can programmed with your PHONE these days.

Claim:
If you have a manual transmission LS swap, it MUST be a T-56 and those are like $2500!

Reality:
If you have the means to do it, plenty of team have bought smashed / salvaged cars with T-56 transmissions and parted out the entire car while saving the transmission for themselves. Often, they still turn a profit on selling the salvaged parts and essentially get a 'free' transmission. Again, there is no limit on sweat equity.

However, not all of us have a full blown wrecking yard at our disposal. This is where creativity heavily comes into play. Instead of swapping in even more GM parts, you have the option to simply cut the bell housing off of your $50 BMW transmission (they are no-joke a dime a dozen) and weld a GM bellhousing onto it in its place. This was one of my most proud Lemons moments, but also one of the least appreciated. Even Judge Eric completely glossed over this detail at its first race and made the stereotypical "...it obviously has a T56." Again, there is no cap on creativity. Everyone is guilty at some point of underestimating the creativity or sweat equity of their fellow racer.

Long winded conclusion:
In closing, claimers do more than just take away the monetary investment from a car / team. They also take away the sweat equity and creativity that the previous owner(s) spent countless hours developing and executing. A great example of this is the Geo MetSHO with the twin turbo Taurus SHO motor in the back. The original owners spent MILLIONS of man-hours building and maintaining that car. There was a thousand page "owners manual" that went along with the car when it was sold to the new owner detailing every last intricate detail to the car. It has unfortunately sat in a warehouse since it was sold as the new owner severely underestimated the level of creative commitment that car requires.

I guess you could say the MetSHO was 'claimed' by its new owner, but will likely never return to its previous glory since the new owner doesn't have the same creativity and / or vision for the car that the original owner(s) had. Until there's a way to claim creativity and ambition to put in the sweat equity, there will always be a disparity between teams.

The Pentastar whisperer

Re: Claims in the Spirit

^Therein lies the rub.  When you start with a decent platform and dump a V8 with a ton more torque into it, you should get scrutinized.  When you take an X1/9 and put say an Alfa V6 in it, you should be applauded and waved on your way.  The base reason for the $500 rule is not to even the playing field.  It's to discourage cars that have sporting pretentions and encourage the ones that don't.  But the series is ridiculously inclusive so everyone gets to play.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Claims in the Spirit

rusty_lugnuts wrote:

For next race, our pit radio guy has agreed that he won't leave the radio unattended to go buy hamburger buns - we think we found 10 laps from this fix alone.

Buy hamburger buns, groceries and track snack before the race starts.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Claims in the Spirit

A strange thing happened last weekend-  Our super legit, sub $500 thunderbird finally won B class, coming in 3rd overall.  The majority of the super fast cars broke/crashed/black flagged themselves out of contention, and aside from us starting the race cleaning the windshield while most other cars were racing, we ran black flag free with 3:30 pitstops.

We have nowhere near the time/effort that alot of folks have in their build, but we can never get that back.  This makes the car worth much more than the money invested.

Silent But Deadly Racing- Chief cook and bottle washer, Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird Turbo Coupe, Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits, finally a B class winner.

Besmirching race tracks in the Eastern US since 2001

Re: Claims in the Spirit

Great, now they're going to give me heat next week at gingerman.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport