1 (edited by mthew_m 2023-01-05 09:17 AM)

Topic: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

So, torque converters.  I kind of understand their basic function, but, I guess my question is more 'how do I 'optimize' one for endurance racing'? (TL:DR - Do I generally want the lowest stall possible, and, can I actually count on a lockup clutch?)

The 4T60E in the Buick is showing some serious signs of degradation - I'm genuinely impressed that it's still holding on, coming from a car with 88k miles on it, adding several thousand more race miles, and heating it to the upper-end of the 200 range several times trying to get our ATF cooler in order.  And, to its credit, it still shifts pretty well.  But, it makes a pretty horrible rattly sound, and the fluid after the last few races (where we didn't even race the whole race) has been awfully dark and burnt smelling, so, preparing for the eventuality of a replacement.  And, while a used transmission is fine, I'd just as soon buy a new torque converter

What am I looking for in a torque converter?  I'm going to spring for a new one, but, want to make sure my logic is sound.  I've read a decent bit about stall speeds, but, it's almost all geared towards drag racing.  Honestly, as long as Dale doesn't have to push the car to help it get going from the driver check, I couldn't care less how it takes off.  Am I correct in the assumption that, for what we're doing, and given the constraints of this transmission, a low stall is good?  Stock, I believe we're in the 2000-2100rpm stall range - and, since we've removed weight and added power, I think it's effectively even higher than that.  The same transmission, hooked up to a larger, heavier (by 400-500lbs) Park Avenue, with more power (3800 NA & S/C) got a ~1400rpm stall, which I believe is as low as they went from the factory.  That's probably a pretty safe bet, right?  We're actually making the same power as an NA 3800 now (cheaty, I know), weighing now even more less than a stock PA, so, I can't see that being a problem. Should I try for lower?  As far as I can tell, it's a GM 245mm/9.75" torque converter, so, parts should swap in (Sonnax lists a whole catalog of stuff for it).   

The big thing I'm looking for is reduction in heat buildup - we have a good sized cooler on it, with a dedicated pusher fan, that takes the hot fluid and gets it nice and cool again, but, still the transmission gets hot.  Everyone else who races 4T60s says they just don't flow enough fluid through the cooler to really cool themselves at full duty, and they also really, really don't like running hot.  At Road Atlanta last month, temps in the 50s, wet (so can't push it quite as hard as you'd like), transmission fluid is still running 200-210.  Add another 30-40 degrees of ambient temperature, a stickier track, and you're quickly into 'this thing is too hot' territory.  I don't want to make the car practically undriveable or sacrifice a ton of speed, but, swapping to a much lower stall converter seems like it should reduce heat, and probably won't affect driveability/speed too much, since we don't do a lot of 'taking off'. 

The other thought is, you can wire in a lockup switch for these cars relatively easily.  But, is that just asking for trouble?  Barring the fact that you'd have to remember to turn it off before you stop, do those things fail often?  And, if they fail, do they cause problems, or do they just kinda quit working?  Not looking to add extra problems, but, essentially bypassing the torque converter altogether and eliminating that huge source of heat sounds great.  I would be so nice not to have to agonize over this damned transmission fluid temperature every race.

Semi-Sentient Centenarians
1996 Buick Century - we upgraded our crappy GM sedan with parts from a crappy GM minivan.
"It's got a van motor, a 220 cubic inch plant, it's got van tires, van suspension, van shocks. It's a model with the catalytic converters ripped out so
     it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it a racecar or what?" - Blues Brothers, Probably

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

CHEETURZ!!!111!!!!!!11!

mthew_m wrote:

The other thought is, you can wire in a lockup switch for these cars relatively easily.  But, is that just asking for trouble? Barring the fact that you'd have to remember to turn it off before you stop, do those things fail often?

No help for you on the primary question, but I have anecdotally seen MANY instances where a car failed because "the driver didn't remember to manage the switchable [cooling element, usually, but occasionally other things]."

No offense to anyone on this board, but driving the car, managing traffic, and trying to remember to check gauges is frequently a full workload for even experienced Lemons racers. Having an expectation of also managing some critical mechanical component on a switch is a big ask.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

therood wrote:

No offense to anyone on this board...

None comprehended!

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

therood wrote:

No offense to anyone on this board, but driving the car, managing traffic, and trying to remember to check gauges is frequently a full workload for even experienced Lemons racers. Having an expectation of also managing some critical mechanical component on a switch is a big ask.

Oh, I agree completely - it's one of the benefits of having an automatic transmission.  There's so much else to have to manage and worry about with driving - just let the car figure out what gear you need to be in!  A manual would be nice, but, since the car's already an automatic, I don't think there's enough positives to a manual to warrant the effort of the change. 

That said, I don't think a TCC lockup switch is a critical thing.  I guess remembering to turn it on is an ask, but, if someone forgets to switch it on, it's just going to do like it's doing now.  And, if/when the big tablet starts flashing bright red and beeping because the transmission is too hot, they could just turn the switch on rather than think 'Matthew would probably want me to alter my driving and cool the transmission off.  Oh well.'  Of course, fast forward to me trying to pull off the track at the end of the race, the car dying, and me alternating between start-stalls-start-stalls, getting towed in, and realizing I'd just forgotten the switch.  But, idiots will find a way.

Semi-Sentient Centenarians
1996 Buick Century - we upgraded our crappy GM sedan with parts from a crappy GM minivan.
"It's got a van motor, a 220 cubic inch plant, it's got van tires, van suspension, van shocks. It's a model with the catalytic converters ripped out so
     it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it a racecar or what?" - Blues Brothers, Probably

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

mthew_m wrote:
therood wrote:

No offense to anyone on this board, but driving the car, managing traffic, and trying to remember to check gauges is frequently a full workload for even experienced Lemons racers. Having an expectation of also managing some critical mechanical component on a switch is a big ask.

Oh, I agree completely - it's one of the benefits of having an automatic transmission.  There's so much else to have to manage and worry about with driving - just let the car figure out what gear you need to be in!  A manual would be nice, but, since the car's already an automatic, I don't think there's enough positives to a manual to warrant the effort of the change. 

That said, I don't think a TCC lockup switch is a critical thing.  I guess remembering to turn it on is an ask, but, if someone forgets to switch it on, it's just going to do like it's doing now.  And, if/when the big tablet starts flashing bright red and beeping because the transmission is too hot, they could just turn the switch on rather than think 'Matthew would probably want me to alter my driving and cool the transmission off.  Oh well.'  Of course, fast forward to me trying to pull off the track at the end of the race, the car dying, and me alternating between start-stalls-start-stalls, getting towed in, and realizing I'd just forgotten the switch.  But, idiots will find a way.

You could hook the lockup switch to a giant warning light that stays on when it is not locked up.  I have only been successful with idiot lights, might be my poor driver choices.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

6 (edited by chaase 2023-01-05 11:05 AM)

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

Hopefully Manny aka Mkotzias will respond for his thoughts but I can get you in contact w/him if push comes to shove. I wouldn't put a higher stall converter in there. It will likely just add more heat to the system. The issue you have with lock up is that it can end up locking and unlocking numerous times which degrades the life of the converter.

Can you add a second cooler to the system?

Is there a different automatic transmission you can swap in?

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

Yes, so you are right on the assumption that lower stall converter would generate less heat. Happens for few reasons, the converter is max efficient when its stalled. 2nd the heat build up is the lower of efficiency * HP going though it, lower stall means less HP usually so generates less heat.
Down side more load on the clutches of the transmission. but that can be addressed with driving behavior.

If you ok with additional complexity, can add another cooler plumed into the pan with a pump system. I dont know if adding pump to existing cooling lines would mess anything up, but its also an option.

https://www.facebook.com/greatglobsofoil/
This car....Is said to have a will of it's Own. Twisting its own body in rage...It accelerates on.
1978 Opel/Buick Isuzu(C>B>C>B) , 1996 Nissan Maxima OnlyFans (B) , Sold 1996 Ford Probe GT(B),

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

Since I got thrown into this one......4t60Es are famous for losing the overdrive hub and clutches for 4th gear. Assuming most tracks don't need 4th gear and the fact that we all drive pushing the loud pedal trying to contact the Radiator with our heel, it is more a case of the trans is cooked. They are a hot running transmission to begin with but if you cant keep the temps under control with a larger cooler you have a toasty set of clutches inside. An earlier stall speed can help with temps but it will degrade your acceleration. (who am I kidding, acceleration won't affect your race whatsoever!)
My 2 cents..... or lack of common sense, IDK!
Manny

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

Can't really add to the torque converter info, as it seems to have been covered well by folks smarter than me. 

From an aircraft/aerodynamic perspective, a puller fan will flow more air than a pusher of the same power/diameter, etc. Of course, that is if you have room for one behind the tranny cooler.  If not, try adding a second tranny cooler or a bigger fan (or both).

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

Um, what was said about 4th/od is true. My old GTP wouldn’t shift out of third until around 145 mph. So I don’t think you’re going to need that on most road courses.

Higher stall speed is really just beneficial for drag racing. The following is a gross generalization. When you’re getting ready to launch, you can apply throttle while holding the brakes on. The rpm that it stops building at is your stall. Higher stall = more rpms=harder launch. All of which can be undone with poor tires!

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

Your car's weight affects what is referred to as flash stall - essentially the resistance to movement of the car - Mash the pedal with the car stationary, and the car will hesitate with a higher stall TC.

Nobunaga wrote:

The rpm that it stops building at is your stall. Higher stall = more rpms=harder launch.

Harder launch, but also you'd want to have your stall where your engine TQ peak is.

You'll want a towing-type converter, if such a thing exists for your car. Lower stall, and less slippage.
Also, a larger diameter TC will give more TQ multiplication, slipping less.

Re: TCC switch, I dunno the long-term effects, but you could always put a NC relay inline that opens when you step on the brake pedal.
My 1980 K20 Chevy had that from the factory. That'd keep your drivers from stalling the car when stopping in the penalty box.
You could also add a vacuum-based control switch that cut the switch at higher vacuum, like idling, and corner deceleration. 

Another place to look for longevity, switch to a racing ATF. I asked redline once about using their Race ATF in my V8 SHO Taurus.
They indicated that it was stable to 300°F. It's a Type F formulation with higher viscosity. Type F has very little friction modifiers, so the trans slips less, saving the clutches and bands.

Ultimately, FWD auto trans are not well suited to endurance racing.

BTW: AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS SHOULD NEVER BE TOWED WITH THE ENGINE OFF. You will smoke the clutches because the pump runs off of the TC. I know it's not always a possibility, but beware.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

Mkotzias wrote:

Since I got thrown into this one......4t60Es are famous for losing the overdrive hub and clutches for 4th gear. Assuming most tracks don't need 4th gear and the fact that we all drive pushing the loud pedal trying to contact the Radiator with our heel, it is more a case of the trans is cooked. They are a hot running transmission to begin with but if you cant keep the temps under control with a larger cooler you have a toasty set of clutches inside. An earlier stall speed can help with temps but it will degrade your acceleration. (who am I kidding, acceleration won't affect your race whatsoever!)
My 2 cents..... or lack of common sense, IDK!
Manny

Oh yes, definitely no 4th.  Even at Sebring on 15" wheels (with correspondingly small tires), the car would just barely get to the top of 3rd on the long back straightaway.  Now, on 17s, it's not even close at Road Atlanta.  I think being a large car with a lot of drag and not a ton of power helps.  big_smile

And, I do know we've gone through some clutch material.  How much is anyone's guess, but, at some point, they're going to give up.  I think when the time comes, a lower stall converter is worth a try - if it ends up not being a good move, it's a pain, but, it can always be swapped back out for a different one.  I've done some internet digging and even reached out to some transmission shops, and no one seems to have any clue about increasing flow to the cooler.  Because, if the cooler is already doing its job of cooling the fluid back down, adding more cooler is just going to reduce pressure (and flow) further, and make the situation worse.

Semi-Sentient Centenarians
1996 Buick Century - we upgraded our crappy GM sedan with parts from a crappy GM minivan.
"It's got a van motor, a 220 cubic inch plant, it's got van tires, van suspension, van shocks. It's a model with the catalytic converters ripped out so
     it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it a racecar or what?" - Blues Brothers, Probably

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

mthew_m wrote:
Mkotzias wrote:

Since I got thrown into this one......4t60Es are famous for losing the overdrive hub and clutches for 4th gear. Assuming most tracks don't need 4th gear and the fact that we all drive pushing the loud pedal trying to contact the Radiator with our heel, it is more a case of the trans is cooked. They are a hot running transmission to begin with but if you cant keep the temps under control with a larger cooler you have a toasty set of clutches inside. An earlier stall speed can help with temps but it will degrade your acceleration. (who am I kidding, acceleration won't affect your race whatsoever!)
My 2 cents..... or lack of common sense, IDK!
Manny

Oh yes, definitely no 4th.  Even at Sebring on 15" wheels (with correspondingly small tires), the car would just barely get to the top of 3rd on the long back straightaway.  Now, on 17s, it's not even close at Road Atlanta.  I think being a large car with a lot of drag and not a ton of power helps.  big_smile

And, I do know we've gone through some clutch material.  How much is anyone's guess, but, at some point, they're going to give up.  I think when the time comes, a lower stall converter is worth a try - if it ends up not being a good move, it's a pain, but, it can always be swapped back out for a different one.  I've done some internet digging and even reached out to some transmission shops, and no one seems to have any clue about increasing flow to the cooler.  Because, if the cooler is already doing its job of cooling the fluid back down, adding more cooler is just going to reduce pressure (and flow) further, and make the situation worse.

Can you find/add  an in-line pump to the system? That would effectively boost the pressure and increase the flow rate.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

kakarot1232001 wrote:

Yes, so you are right on the assumption that lower stall converter would generate less heat. Happens for few reasons, the converter is max efficient when its stalled. 2nd the heat build up is the lower of efficiency * HP going though it, lower stall means less HP usually so generates less heat.
Down side more load on the clutches of the transmission. but that can be addressed with driving behavior.

If you ok with additional complexity, can add another cooler plumed into the pan with a pump system. I dont know if adding pump to existing cooling lines would mess anything up, but its also an option.

I hadn't thought of an auxiliary cooling circuit.  That's a good idea!  I'm not sure that it will work here, because the pan is extremely shallow, and it's in the same plane as the bottom of the engine cradle (i.e. anything lower will be the lowest point on the middle of the car), so, adding to the bottom is probably not a wise option either.  But, if there is a good spot somewhere, other than making sure the tap is done really well, the rest of it should be able to be served by the same stuff you'd use for a differential cooler. 

I've been tempted by this aftermarket pan that has fins on it, but, again, the fins would be the lowest thing on the middle of the car, so, say someone puts 2 off and there's a rut beside the track or something, instead of the engine cradle hitting the concrete, your transmission pan is hitting the concrete.  Not sure that's really something I'm looking for. 

https://zzperformance.com/products/4t65 … XMQAvD_BwE

Semi-Sentient Centenarians
1996 Buick Century - we upgraded our crappy GM sedan with parts from a crappy GM minivan.
"It's got a van motor, a 220 cubic inch plant, it's got van tires, van suspension, van shocks. It's a model with the catalytic converters ripped out so
     it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it a racecar or what?" - Blues Brothers, Probably

15 (edited by VKZ24 2023-01-06 01:08 PM)

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

mthew_m wrote:

I've been tempted by this aftermarket pan that has fins on it, but, again, the fins would be the lowest thing on the middle of the car, so, say someone puts 2 off and there's a rut beside the track or something, instead of the engine cradle hitting the concrete, your transmission pan is hitting the concrete.

Ever heard of a skid plate?  Our car effectively has one that keeps us from smashing the header when we hop the curbs.  Might be possible to add one to protect the pan, but for the best solution, ask Ed. wink

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

mthew_m wrote:
kakarot1232001 wrote:

Yes, so you are right on the assumption that lower stall converter would generate less heat. Happens for few reasons, the converter is max efficient when its stalled. 2nd the heat build up is the lower of efficiency * HP going though it, lower stall means less HP usually so generates less heat.
Down side more load on the clutches of the transmission. but that can be addressed with driving behavior.

If you ok with additional complexity, can add another cooler plumed into the pan with a pump system. I dont know if adding pump to existing cooling lines would mess anything up, but its also an option.

I hadn't thought of an auxiliary cooling circuit.  That's a good idea!  I'm not sure that it will work here, because the pan is extremely shallow, and it's in the same plane as the bottom of the engine cradle (i.e. anything lower will be the lowest point on the middle of the car), so, adding to the bottom is probably not a wise option either.  But, if there is a good spot somewhere, other than making sure the tap is done really well, the rest of it should be able to be served by the same stuff you'd use for a differential cooler. 

I've been tempted by this aftermarket pan that has fins on it, but, again, the fins would be the lowest thing on the middle of the car, so, say someone puts 2 off and there's a rut beside the track or something, instead of the engine cradle hitting the concrete, your transmission pan is hitting the concrete.  Not sure that's really something I'm looking for. 

https://zzperformance.com/products/4t65 … XMQAvD_BwE

Oh, you dont need to go to the pan, cause the oil level is up higher. So would drill and tap side of the case and there you go smile  I would use a thermal switch that would trigger a basic gear 12V pump and fan on cooler. Can even add an oil filter if you want. You can also make some ducts and point it right at the transmission, that actually works. As long as you get nice flow through. Much options big_smile

Skid plates are fun, besides removing air flow... so win/lose

https://www.facebook.com/greatglobsofoil/
This car....Is said to have a will of it's Own. Twisting its own body in rage...It accelerates on.
1978 Opel/Buick Isuzu(C>B>C>B) , 1996 Nissan Maxima OnlyFans (B) , Sold 1996 Ford Probe GT(B),

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

mthew_m wrote:
kakarot1232001 wrote:

Yes, so you are right on the assumption that lower stall converter would generate less heat. Happens for few reasons, the converter is max efficient when its stalled. 2nd the heat build up is the lower of efficiency * HP going though it, lower stall means less HP usually so generates less heat.
Down side more load on the clutches of the transmission. but that can be addressed with driving behavior.

If you ok with additional complexity, can add another cooler plumed into the pan with a pump system. I dont know if adding pump to existing cooling lines would mess anything up, but its also an option.

I hadn't thought of an auxiliary cooling circuit.  That's a good idea!  I'm not sure that it will work here, because the pan is extremely shallow, and it's in the same plane as the bottom of the engine cradle (i.e. anything lower will be the lowest point on the middle of the car), so, adding to the bottom is probably not a wise option either.  But, if there is a good spot somewhere, other than making sure the tap is done really well, the rest of it should be able to be served by the same stuff you'd use for a differential cooler. 

I've been tempted by this aftermarket pan that has fins on it, but, again, the fins would be the lowest thing on the middle of the car, so, say someone puts 2 off and there's a rut beside the track or something, instead of the engine cradle hitting the concrete, your transmission pan is hitting the concrete.  Not sure that's really something I'm looking for. 

https://zzperformance.com/products/4t65 … XMQAvD_BwE

The fins on that pan are not going to affect your ground clearance enough to worry. Those fins are what...1/4"-1/2" at most. There is a ton of airflow under the car and having it draw heat away from the pain could be very helpful.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

18 (edited by Team Infinniti 2023-01-06 07:32 PM)

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

Racing the pointy end w/a heavy RWD, mostly in the other series, with a A class equivalent for a decade+ . Now running 2 sister teams w/automatics.

Here are thoughts reading the OP:

Get a basic $100 shift improver kit installed in the replacement  unit, it will tighten shifts adding longevity, reducing slip/heat. You already cooked this current one.

Fluid turning color quickly (in a race or 2) Unit is already burned up, change it now, before the next race.

Redline does a worse job then AMILIE universal Synthetic, I will use NOTHING other, will go to extremes to find more when supplies locally dry up. If not amilie, find mobile 1 or equivalent while shopping for amilie 

Cooler, get the biggest one you can find, then find a bigger one, make sure to put it in front of the car.

Pump? Only if using as a aux pan cooler with a separate cooling circuit, never tried but sounds like a great idea.

New Converter? Yes and no, if used trans, use what came with it, NEVER recycle the one from a burnt unit. Yes, we have used the same "new one" bought long ago but its ill advised as it can store much crud from the last failure.

Stall does not go up with a lighter car, it should go down as its easier to accelerate.

Lower stall? If it doesn't exist, its likely no one will make it, all convertor company's are mentally programmed to drag race, have been told NO (with a giggle in the background) numerous times.

Lockup? Might work but Have not tried, always feared the thing wouldnt work with our duty cycle and figured it would end the day sooner if so

To summarize: Change the unit when the fluid browns, its already hurt, and get a bigger cooler... then double it.

Hope this helps

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

Team Infinniti wrote:

Redline does a worse job then AMILIE universal Synthetic, I will use NOTHING other, will go to extremes to find more when supplies locally dry up. If not amilie, find mobile 1 or equivalent while shopping for amilie 

Cooler, get the biggest one you can find, then find a bigger one, make sure to put it in front of the car.

Thank you for posting your experience. We are new to racing automatics and my understanding is they function using pixie dust.

I've never heard of Amilie but I might give them a try, have you ever run Amsoil and how does it compare? I run Amsoil in our tow vehicle and dailies and usually stock their fluid, so if it's a close contender I'd like to continue sticking to the same stuff.

I have a few medium sized cooler laying around, and perhaps I can run them in parallel (or series...?) but I've had previously bad experience with running too big of an oil cooler. I had a free FC RX7 oil cooler than I bolted to an NA miata and the result was it wasn't able to make more than 15 PSI of oil pressure at 7k RPMs... the pump wasn't able to keep up with the gigantic cooler. Is there any concern of oversizing a cooler on an auto trans? My current plan was to tee in a temp sensor and upsize the cooler or add more coolers until I can keep temps under control to avoid oversizing the cooler.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

This should keep it cool.
Mounting might be a challenge, though.
Oil Cooler
BTW I was not endorsing, nor recommending Redline Oils, just racing ATF.
I use Mobil 1, mostly. Amilie is not well known on the West Coast.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater

21 (edited by Team Infinniti 2023-01-09 09:23 PM)

Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

duthehustle93 wrote:
Team Infinniti wrote:

Redline does a worse job then AMILIE universal Synthetic, I will use NOTHING other, will go to extremes to find more when supplies locally dry up. If not amilie, find mobile 1 or equivalent while shopping for amilie 

Cooler, get the biggest one you can find, then find a bigger one, make sure to put it in front of the car.

Thank you for posting your experience. We are new to racing automatics and my understanding is they function using pixie dust.

I've never heard of Amilie but I might give them a try, have you ever run Amsoil and how does it compare? I run Amsoil in our tow vehicle and dailies and usually stock their fluid, so if it's a close contender I'd like to continue sticking to the same stuff.

I have a few medium sized cooler laying around, and perhaps I can run them in parallel (or series...?) but I've had previously bad experience with running too big of an oil cooler. I had a free FC RX7 oil cooler than I bolted to an NA miata and the result was it wasn't able to make more than 15 PSI of oil pressure at 7k RPMs... the pump wasn't able to keep up with the gigantic cooler. Is there any concern of oversizing a cooler on an auto trans? My current plan was to tee in a temp sensor and upsize the cooler or add more coolers until I can keep temps under control to avoid oversizing the cooler.

Let me start with:

A certain, decent, amount of heat comes from the converter, this is controllable with proper cooling, the brown/burnt look/smell is not from that, it is from clutch friction damage, slow or soggy shifts are the biggest danger!  At this point, we have shift quickness & firmness of a drag car, its a pain in many ways but sounds cool entering the track, oh, gets long life.

Never tried, this may sound weird, but Amsoil seems overkill, likely better then the experience had with redline, not bashing, just saying it did nothing to extend trans life, actually, trans life slightly decreased in the couple years tried. Could it have been something else? Sure, but no clue what.

We have run a old school tube and fin a/c condenser the size of the radiator, not sure where too big comes into play, never found the point of "too much" do not worry about too cold, its not a thing with our kind of track use, if running a fan, skip all the complexities of a thermostatic control, turn it on and go.

All 3 cars have vastly different cooler setups, do not be afraid to experiment, surface area and flow are what I strive for. No clue why you would have had issues with the rx7 cooler.

Final random thought for anyone reading in 5 years: High efficiency a/c condensers do not flow enough fluid, passages are too small.

Series is what I would try.

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Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

Thanks for the info!!!

I'll throw on two coolers since they're free and go from there.

I've got an amsoil membership and their OE universal fluid is the same price as amilie... I've never seem that brand on the shelf out here so it'd need be ordered at which point I might as well go Amsoil.

Full Ass Racing
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Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

Lots of coolers is the way.
We made our Cavalier TH125 last by wiring the lockup to a pressure switch on the case so it would lock up at about 12mph and stay locked.
Every shift event is a burst of heat into the clutches that has to be dissipated, The fewer shifts the better, the 'tighter' the torque converter the better. Type F is the torque-capacity bandaid that will give you another few percent holding power, but if you need it you're probably already over the line as far as likely survivability...

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Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

I agree with the sentiment that “if you need it it’s probably too late” regarding Type F… but, although I can see how it helps, what I’m unclear about is the downside to using Type F. Application would be the TH400 in the neverending Vette project, and perhaps the ancient Benz 500SE which I’ve been know to drive inadvisably hard on the streets.

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Re: Fucking Torque Converters, How Do They Work?!

Type44 wrote:

I agree with the sentiment that “if you need it it’s probably too late” regarding Type F… but, although I can see how it helps, what I’m unclear about is the downside to using Type F.

I'm no lubricant engineer, but my understanding of Type F v. anything else is that Type F has little to no friction modifiers, so the fluid id less slippery. Most manufacturers want a smoooooth engagement in an A/T so that the customer is in no way discomfited by a gear change.
So, slippery fluid makes for soft shifts. Soft shifts make a lot of heat due to their slow clutch engagement. Well, I don't want that in a racecar.

It may also be that more modern friction materials need some additive that isn't in Type F in order to last 100K+ miles.
Many synthetics are already slippery enough, or close to enough, that they don't use a lot of friction modifier. But, they handle heat better
so they can tolerate a bit more "normal" gear change in an A/T.

Regarding being too late...yah, switching to Type F on an old transmission isn't going to make anything better.
Starting with Type F on a rebuild will likely help over time, and under race conditions. YMMV.

You might look to the site Bob is the Oil Guy for answers.
Also, you could ask a transmission builder.

Remember I am not a lubricant engineer, just an accumulator of potentially useless/useful info.

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