• From: Frisco, Texas
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 1,430

Re: Opening a brake shop at Gingerman!

KTL wrote:

Alot of the comments prove a common mistake people make with their brake pad choice- you get what you pay for and it ends up costing you more in the end.   Durlast, combo street/track pads, "high performance" street pads, etc. etc. are false economy.

People who are new to track driving are notorious overbrakers, so that right there demands an even more capable pad.  Your best bet is a true racing pad.  And true racing pads don't cost a mint.  Hawk full on race pads are quite affordable, as are Porterfield pads.  Just like Trevor said about Carbotech, Porterfield will make a pad for ANY vehicle you ask them to.  All they need is the pad shape (send them your stock crap pads) and they'll make up a backing plate with race compound you need.

Because honestly, Gingerman isn't THAT hard on brakes guys...  It puts them to the test for sure, but there's a lot of areas on the track that are either tap & go or long throttle areas to let the brakes cool.  Phenolic (plastic) pistons are great, but they do nothing in terms of pad heat management.  If you don't have pads that can handle the heat of overbraking (or lack of thermal mass in the rotors) then you'll just have brake fade/failure a different way than fluid boiling.

Why guess/hope and use a marginal pad?  Get true race pads and have one less failure point on your ride.

Actually the brakes worked great, right up until the steel backing pads burned away! You kinda missed the point though.... We didn't choose crap brakes - I expected Hawk blues, the same ones I've been running since they were introduced, but the car owner had a little boo-boo on ordering and then it was too late! I've been racing competitively since 1987 and I may be an over braker, but we turned pretty good/consistent times for an old crappy neon.

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  • From: Corona, CA.
  • Registered: 2009-08-03
  • Posts: 359

Re: Opening a brake shop at Gingerman!

KTL wrote:

...Phenolic (plastic) pistons are great, but they do nothing in terms of pad heat management.  If you don't have pads that can handle the heat of overbraking (or lack of thermal mass in the rotors) then you'll just have brake fade/failure a different way than fluid boiling.

Why guess/hope and use a marginal pad?  Get true race pads and have one less failure point on your ride.

Um, Hawk Blues ARE full race pads.  They are an old compound, though.  Hawk DTC is a newer series of compounds, but I understand that some of them can be a bit grabby in the wet.  Do you want grabby, knife-edge sprint race pads on an endurance racing car?  I don't.  If I ever shuck the linking from a Hawk Blue (I have seen it done), then I'll worry about it.

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28 Reply by magnusracing (edited by magnusracing 2010-04-21 10:51 PM)

  • From: San Diego, CA
  • Registered: 2009-08-17
  • Posts: 364

Re: Opening a brake shop at Gingerman!

Did a full Lemons weekend with a 4000lb V-12 Jaguar with the Carbotech XP10 pads. Still over half the pad left.

With all the yellow flag time and brake cooling that goes along with it I'd think something as aggressive as a Hawk Blue is overkill.

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  • From: Wheaton IL
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 408

Re: Opening a brake shop at Gingerman!

widgetsltd wrote:
KTL wrote:

...Phenolic (plastic) pistons are great, but they do nothing in terms of pad heat management.  If you don't have pads that can handle the heat of overbraking (or lack of thermal mass in the rotors) then you'll just have brake fade/failure a different way than fluid boiling.

Why guess/hope and use a marginal pad?  Get true race pads and have one less failure point on your ride.

Um, Hawk Blues ARE full race pads.  They are an old compound, though.  Hawk DTC is a newer series of compounds, but I understand that some of them can be a bit grabby in the wet.  Do you want grabby, knife-edge sprint race pads on an endurance racing car?  I don't.  If I ever shuck the linking from a Hawk Blue (I have seen it done), then I'll worry about it.

Besides being a dogshit pad, the blue is no more an endurance compound than the dtc.  There are plenty of good endurance compounds available without having to compromise.  This seems like the last place anybody would try to save money, since it will end your race really fast.

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  • From: Automation Alley
  • Registered: 2009-07-14
  • Posts: 206

Re: Opening a brake shop at Gingerman!

Trevor, not sure why you are so down on Hawk.

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  • From: Wheaton IL
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 408

Re: Opening a brake shop at Gingerman!

I'm not.  I just hate the blue pads.  In fact one of my cars has a Hawk sticker on it, to match the pads.

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32 Reply by icemang17 (edited by icemang17 2010-04-22 06:16 PM)

  • Registered: 2009-10-25
  • Posts: 1,993

Re: Opening a brake shop at Gingerman!

okay......brake problems are quite common...BUT SHOULDN'T BE.....  they are FREE for a reason..yes I'm lucky that our 928 has pretty good stock brakes....but the old formula of run stock brakes with race fluid-pads-steel braided lines if hard to argue with...

Lets say you run an unique vehicle that does not have on the shelf race brake pads.....Raybestos will custom make any pad  you need....thats what we did...sure its NOT cheap...but 43 hours on track on 1 set of pads speaks for itself...

John at Evil Genius Racing can get any pad for any vehicle you might need....yes he built my car and I listened to him about brakes....he was RIGHT...  (he typically is)

1 less thing to worry about during race weekend.....

Richard Doty
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  • From: Wheaton IL
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 408

Re: Opening a brake shop at Gingerman!

LOL.....That's good advice....... I think anybody that has read this thread.........has already received it.

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  • Troy
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  • From: Houston, TX
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,634

Re: Opening a brake shop at Gingerman!

I have been pretty vocal about the need for good brakes and pads for a long time.

Our front pads are Porterfield RAs and they have been through 5 races with no problems.

The rears got upgraded from Hawk HP+s to RA-1s after the first race so they have 4 races on them.

Yes, they are kinda price compared to parts store crap pads.  Track time ain't cheap either and we try to get as much as we can.  In the long run a true race pad should be more cost effective due to longevity.

As others have pointed out, race pads and street tires do not mix well.  We had a good group of drivers in Feb 10 and we still have 4 round tires.  I have 8 flat spotted tires.

I am considering going to an endurance compound but I have been happy with the Porterfield R4s so far.

We put Hawk HP+s on a C4 Corvette for DE stuff and I have been happy so far.

My Maxima has Hawk pads which seem ok.

Some time back, I made a simple proposal regarding brakes.

Zero Tolerance for brake failures.  If you have a brake failure due to insufficient preparation, you are trailered for the weekend.  If you can document adequate preparation but you got a bad part, you can repair and keep racing.

It's funny how all kinds of people get real preachy about their crappy brake selections but no one seems interested in adopting a Zero Tolerance for brake failures plan. 

The reason brake issues concern we so much is some guy with crap brakes behind me, may end my weekend or worse. 

This is a race, we and we are really racing. 

A Neon/Cavalier/whatever was an economical commuter car, not a race car.  A few teams have successfully raced Neons in Texas without brake problems, it can be done.

Although John Condren of Chumpcar believes stock brakes are good enough for what we are doing.  That is heavily dependent on the car. 

I see a disturbing amount of brake failures at races.  There should be none!

Here is one other reality about brakes, you only need them if the car runs.  We have suffered mechanical issues through our 5 races so while we have 5 races under our belt, not all were huge loads on the brakes.

Like Icemang, said, it's an unlimited budget and one less thing to worry about.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z
  • From: Lake Orion, MI
  • Registered: 2009-10-05
  • Posts: 60

Re: Opening a brake shop at Gingerman!

Troy wrote:

Zero Tolerance for brake failures.  If you have a brake failure due to insufficient preparation, you are trailered for the weekend.  If you can document adequate preparation but you got a bad part, you can repair and keep racing.
.
.
.
Like Icemang, said, it's an unlimited budget and one less thing to worry about.

With as much humbleness as I can transmit over a forum - has anyone had their weekend prematurely ended when someone else's brakes jump the shark in a turn?

What is your definition of brake failure?  Running out of Pads?  because if that is the case - we would have been done by about 2:30 PM on Saturday.  And not out of incompetence or negligence.  We felt, comfortably, that we had enough pad for the first day (EBC-Red) - The failure in our brakes was a direct result of inexperience with the pad, pad use at Gingerman vs. Nelson, and our increase in ability as drivers (used loosely here).  And its not a limitless budget - not everyone rolls into Lemons with a totally vetted car, let alone a brake pad selection.  Some of us only get on the track and stress the car AT the races - I'll be lucky if I can take the car over to Waterford Hills and get some seat time to become a better driver, let alone try some EBC - Yellows and test out the wear... It's a learning process - and Lemons provides you with the ability to learn on the fly - without crucifying you for noobish mistakes - thats the draw for us. I know for next time, if we stick with the same pad - to start with a new set, have a spare set on hand, and if we can afford it - a spare set of calipers.

I think OEM Brakes are adequate for the beginner driver, in a bone stock car, running on the kind of tracks we are running on.  Now if you are a seasoned, wily vett - of course you are going to cook a stock set of duralast pads - but you should know better.  As car owners it is your responsibility, not Lemons,  to have your shit in order.  The fine folks at Lemons just want to make sure you are safe doing it.  I understand and appreciate brakes are a part of safety, but asking for even more regulation and more interrogation puts more work on the organizers who are, IMHO, very close to capacity validating the existing safety regulations in place.

Mike,
Team Reynolds Style
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  • From: Land Of Subarus, Colorado
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 9,416

Re: Opening a brake shop at Gingerman!

Troy wrote:

I have been pretty vocal about the need for good brakes and pads for a long time (lengthy Troy Tirade™ follows)

OK, from now on any team that suffers a brake failure must sit still for Troy's Brake Lecture.

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37 Reply by atomicalex (edited by atomicalex 2010-04-23 10:47 AM)

  • From: Automation Alley
  • Registered: 2009-07-14
  • Posts: 206

Re: Opening a brake shop at Gingerman!

Good God. That's a fair bit draconian, no?

If someone has brake failure behind you, they will likely end up off the track, not in your back end.

As someone who tracks street cars with regularity, I do agree that stock pads are rarely sufficient. But I also push those cars far beyond what they are intended to do, and upgrade accordingly. If a noob team is showing up with a stock brake setup, they likely can't drive much beyond it, either.

Troy, I'm guessing you've not run at GingerMan. It's one of the most braking-intensive tracks in the US. If there are going to be braking issues in a car, they will happen at that track. That does not mean that the brake setups were insufficient for Lemons, it means they were insufficient for GingerMan. Big difference, IMO.

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  • From: Toronto, Ontario
  • Registered: 2009-05-03
  • Posts: 1,114

Re: Opening a brake shop at Gingerman!

If the treadwear rule was changed to say, 400 or 420 I'm sure the brakes would last a lot longer.....the real risk in a no tolerance rule for brake failure is you end up with a field full of E30's and Miatas....or silhouette racing with old bodies on newer chassis.....they used to run 12 hours at Sebring in the Sixties, right? and 24 at LeMans since the Stone Age? They did it then, often with drums all around....don't know how you can enforce a rule like this on teams with antiques and/or no ability to test pre-race..

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....
  • From: Bloomington, IN
  • Registered: 2009-08-14
  • Posts: 1,525

Re: Opening a brake shop at Gingerman!

Two words.  Drag Chutes.

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Re: Opening a brake shop at Gingerman!

davisriley wrote:

Two words.  Drag Chutes.

With a team of highly-trained chute-packing midgets in the trunk so you can redeploy on the regular?

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  • From: Bloomington, IN
  • Registered: 2009-08-14
  • Posts: 1,525

Re: Opening a brake shop at Gingerman!

Two more words.  Trunk Monkey. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apsgLdmG7Hk

Bloomington, IN
We'll bring Beer!  Motorsports
Team Fiery Death! #0 2009 Lamest Day(65th), 2010 American Irony(24th), 2010 Detroit Bull(4th),2012 Capitol Offense (8th) 2012 American Irony (11 th), 2013 Capitol Offense (3rd) 2013 Chubba Chedder (4th, Judge Choice!) Now sadly part of a scrap pile. 
Toothless Racing Deadbeats #110 2011 Summit Point (61st) Currently being rebuilt into the new car!
  • Troy
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  • From: Houston, TX
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
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Re: Opening a brake shop at Gingerman!

I've tracked street cars.

Had a caliper start leaking shortly after a DE at TWS.

I do race a freakin' antique 1973 240Z.  I did research and talked to people.  The stock brakes are only so good on those cars. 

Of course back in 1973 tires were not were they are today either.  Yes, the 200 treadwear tires are a limiting factor to the brakes.

Since the car had been in a field rotting for more than a decade, I think the registration was from 94 or 95.  All the brakes were going to have to be replaced.  I did some upgrades and run race pads.  We had 5 races on the fronts and 4 on the rears.  I doubt Gingerman is 5x worse on brakes than MSRH.

The thing that got me on my big peeve with brakes was New Orleans June 2009.  A team blew a rubber brake line then lost a caliper after that.  They flat weren't prepared and did not adequately prep their car in my opinion.

If you show up with old rotted brake lines and they fail, I think you should be done for the weekend.  Your ass may not be worth the price of a set of new lines or calipers but I think mine is.

There have also been brake fires at races. 

A team at the first Chump race drove on their pads until the piston pushed through the baking plates and the brakes completely failed as they blew threw a tire chicane.  Sure it sounds funny but that chicane could have been another car.

To the best of my knowledge, there has not been a major accident caused by a brake failure during a race.

We run a second car with more stock brakes and race pads.  The rear drums need adjustment Saturday night and it wears pads more.  It will still flat spot the tires too but we haven't had any failures.

I don't like seeing problems that could easily be prevented especially when they put others at risk.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z