Re: Junkyard oil cooler

jimeditorial wrote:

Unless the system is designed to spray oil on the underside of the piston deck, there isn't much heat transfer through the oil.....cool it to keep the oil alive, but not as much to support the radiator...heat transfer is proportional to the temperature difference between the working fluid and ambient, so it maybe cooling efficiently at a higher stable temp than stock, but still working well. If you can't squeeze in a bigger rad, think about a large heater core, especially if you relocate it to get airflow...easy to plumb and surprisingly effective.

Umm...not quite true.
the mini - designed in 1958, utilized oil for about 30% of its cooling needs - you will find that Jaguars and diesel trucks that have a gazzillion quart oil pan don't have that many quarts simply because they couldn't figure out how to make smaller oil pans. Air-cooled means Oil-cooled, ask BMW motorcycle riders on that for a very long explanation.

That said, most vehicles with a more-or-less four qt pan - that aren't air cooled - are designed with the oil system to be kept in the ~190 degree range because that's the temp where oil is designed to be most effective. (and the oil designers design around that, kinda a chicken vs. egg thing)
~it is possible to over-cool, and it is possible to be too hot - and to figure out either you need data collection/acquisition.

My example of the mini has a bit of a quandry - if the oil goes much over 160 with the stock rad system - that system gets overloaded and it overheats... which is why Brit cars need to run the heater in summer -or like was mentioned you get a double-sized heater core or put an oil cooler.
- but: the not "over 160" is BELOW the better operating temp of the oil - and the transmission in our oil so if we run the oil under ~190-200 the transmission blows up.
Choice: overheat the engine or blow up the transmission.

Volvo Turbos have a built in 95C oil-stat in the oil filter head.

where ya go with that is that I recommend pretty much the last posters' suggestion, fix what's wrong with airflow and rad-system issues, only add a cooler if you supercharge - get data on what's really going on...

Re: Junkyard oil cooler

I agree but your examples are kind of special cases...IMO Both turbo and transmission-in-sump are additional heat inputs into the oil, not the case with the Neon...oil is a poor heat transfer fluid compared to water; modern heavy-duty diesels do use it by spraying  the underside of the piston and they too have designed-in supplemental oil cooling. The Mini's sidewinder rad and push-through fan system were effective for my Mini's (I owned three all MK II's however) and I never had an overheating problem, although geography plays a part. At -10 or below, I couldn't get enough heat to keep me and the windshield warm without covering most of the rad with cardboard, and you could feel the viscosity of the Castrol 20W50 in the transmission until it warmed up. A larger oil capacity doesn't add cooling unless you have a larger surface area exposed to the airflow...a shallow pan with a lower oil capacity would cool as well once the system equilibrates....heat flow in = heat flow out or else boom regardless.....Jag designing engines that require the oil to assist the cooling system speaks for itself reliability-wise. There's very little surface area in an oil cooler compared to a rad anyway....you can increase the area more easily through the cooling system with bigger rads/cores. Agree re. air-cooled engines, esp. bikes....I seized my CB450SC through a low oil level...bruised a kidney with the right handlebar, which may account for my skepticism! But oil-assisted air cooling is not only a special case, it sure isn't the way to reliable horsepower. Porsche wouldn't add the weight of a cooling system if they could have done it with a big oil cooler. Unless it's really marginal, I'd consider synthetic oil, a homespun windage tray and pan baffles/kickouts as more likely to make the engine more reliable through oiling. Can't hurt, however.

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

28 (edited by Troy 2010-09-27 08:17 PM)

Re: Junkyard oil cooler

There are plenty of oil/trany cooler options available.

While there have been many suggestions for cleaning the cooler and some pointing out reasons to get a new one I will tell you one simple fact I know.

Whenever we have had to replace a motor in one of our boats due o bearing failure, we have to replace the oil cooler for the motor to be warrantied.

I cleaned the first one, I think in a parts cleaner but I don't recall.  The oil flowed from the pan, through an oil filter adapter into the cooler, then into the filter than into the motor.  That motor did not last long but they did warranty it.  We had to replace the cooler to maintain the warranty after that.

Other places require the cooler to be replaced or the warranty is void.

So like others have said, find one that isn't full of gritty crap.  Instead of adding reliability, you could be putting a nail in the coffin.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Junkyard oil cooler

One other detail, particularly on a recent tight clearance motor, is to run a decent oil filter that can handle the full flow of the oil pump at race speeds.

Many cars today flow large amounts of oil yet the aftermarket cheap filters begin to bypass at around 3GPM.  If you are bypassing you are not filtering the oil.  Crap in the bearings eats parts.

Also, many cheaper filters only are 90%+ effective for particles above 25 microns.  A 0.001" clearance is 25 microns.   At 90% the filter allows 1 in 10 particles that big to get into your bearings and likely lets even bigger ones through.  And that's if it isn't bypassing...

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

30 (edited by TheHeckler 2010-09-28 05:33 AM)

Re: Junkyard oil cooler

Also to you question about pressures, yes a good quality oil filter will withstand substantial pressure without failure.  I use wix filters for both the transmission and engine oil.  The Dauphine exceeds 100 PSI on startup for engine oil and the transmission runs up to 185 PSI line pressure.

Many of you may wonder why the oil pressure goes so high.  It probably does on your car too you just used the capillary tube to plumb your pressure gauge.  That acts as a very slow integrator and damps out fluctuations and momentary drops to 0.  Use larger tubing and watch the fun.  Low pressure on corners, wild fluctuations, drops to near 0 when hot and idling.  All sorts of scary fun.  wink   

And on the subject of brake parts cleaner, don't use the chlorinated solvent version anywhere near heat.  It makes Phosgene.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosgene

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: Junkyard oil cooler

Does the 3.0L Duratec motor have similar oil starvation problems that the 2.5L in the Contour did?

Re: Junkyard oil cooler

A bit of that.  I solved it with some good junkyard ingenuity though.  Did the same with the SHOstang and the Lincoln as well.  No more oiling problems for us!

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: Junkyard oil cooler

TheHeckler wrote:

A bit of that.  I solved it with some good junkyard ingenuity though.  Did the same with the SHOstang and the Lincoln as well.  No more oiling problems for us!

The SHOstang shouldn't need any help. There's all kinds of baffling in that pan. Unless the north-south orientation causes trouble.

Re: Junkyard oil cooler

That was my thought as well but it sure seemed like every SHO that blew up good had oiling issues or serious overheating issues ( which probably caused the oil issues as water doesn't lubricate well ).

Hand made 3 quart oil accumulators welded from scrap steel, $11 ebay solenoids and some $0.89 closeout pressure switches from RockAuto give us a lot of oiling insurance for about $15 per car.

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: Junkyard oil cooler

And on the subject of brake parts cleaner, don't use the chlorinated solvent version anywhere near heat. It makes Phosgene.

Yeah, but it works so well for killing wasps.

Re: Junkyard oil cooler

I was at the junkyard yesterday, and just happened to notice that 1980's Mercedes 300 turbo-diesels have huge oil coolers.  They look to be 2x the size of the (already respectable) Volvo 740/760 oil cooler.  Interesting stuff...

Team Co-Craptain, Los Cerdos Voladores
Plymouth Neon
Yeah, we're horrible...but we're LEAST Horrible