Topic: automatic. siftless or not?

The Jag will have an automatic.. two of the prospective racers have never driven a manual and I don't want them to learn at the race track.  (Sigh, I guess the manual will have to stay on the shelf for a while)   I'll just remove the clutch pedal so no one confuses it with the brake) 
  Anyway should I put the kit in to turn the transmission into manual shifting mode?
The stock trans shifts at 5000 automatically but the engine doesn't develop full power untill nearly it's 6500 red line..
  With the shift kit you can hold it to shift at whatever RPM you want.
(actaully kit is a overstatement since it's just an extra ball and a little epoxy I put in the valve body) 
Yeh, either case will get a giant cooler..

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

If these are newb drivers who can't handle shifting a manual, I would not count on them to manually shift a slushbox.

Leave it full auto for the first race.

Jim C.
If God meant for us to race, we'd all have baggy Nomex skin.
08TMS.09NL.10GM, SP, NL.11SP, NL.12SP, VIR, NL.13GM, NJ.14NJ, VIR, WGI.15AB.16GM.17NCM.18GM.19...

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

Valid point however letting it shift by itself is a slow shift which heats up the tranny fluid a lot..  Ah well maybe that will ruin the transmission and then I can swap the manual in?
Nah, I don't want to drive that much!

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

Put a shift improver kit in the valve body.  Leave the stock governor springs in it, so the shift point RPM doesn't change, but open up the holes in the separator plate for the 1-2 apply and 2-3 apply.  Then it will shift like a truck tranny: hard, with no slippage.

Jim C.
If God meant for us to race, we'd all have baggy Nomex skin.
08TMS.09NL.10GM, SP, NL.11SP, NL.12SP, VIR, NL.13GM, NJ.14NJ, VIR, WGI.15AB.16GM.17NCM.18GM.19...

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

You're trying too hard. Turn your A/C condensor into a transmission cooler, and put it in Drive. That's what we did with the Jaggernaut and it worked just fine. If you're wanting a higher shift point, swap in an adjustable vacuum modulator and you can tune it at the track to shift where you want.

6 (edited by Hoonatic Racing 2010-11-11 07:00 AM)

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

let the tranny shift and heat up the ATF,
or
let it run to redline

well, it IS an endurance race, choose the lesser of the two evils.
which can you replace faster: tranny or motor?

Yee-Haw 2010 "Most Heroic Fix" & "I Got Screwed" -2 trophies for 1 lap, but I took checkered on my lap.
Gator-O-Rama 2012 "Organizers Choice" -2 laps 1 trophy, but i still finished ahead of an E30
Yee-Haw 2013 No trophy -26 laps, I think I see a pattern here
Gator-O-Rama 2014 "Waiting for the Last Minute Call from the Governor Award" -who's counting? John

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

The two guys how can't drive stick might be faster to fix!!

1985 BMW 535i... one of the slowest builds ever!!!

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

Agreed. If you can't drive a manual trans, you can't drive.  Tell them to leave it in 4th, and forget about it.

You are only entitled to the space you occupy.

9 (edited by OMGuar 2010-11-13 03:46 AM)

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

EriktheAwful wrote:

You're trying too hard. Turn your A/C condensor into a transmission cooler, and put it in Drive. That's what we did with the Jaggernaut and it worked just fine. If you're wanting a higher shift point, swap in an adjustable vacuum modulator and you can tune it at the track to shift where you want.

Oh you know the A/C condensor trick too? One of the minor little tricks I'll use is put the Cooler in the spot on the firewall where the A/C usually goes.. Then run heater duct work back to the  rear license plate.  That will  do 5 things, 1. Do  a nice job of cooling the transmssion because of air flow through the cooler.  2. lower under hood temps because of air movement 3. dump the air out in a place that will actually increase air flow due to low pressure area. 4 provide fill air in an area that is normally turbulant because of vacum. 5 which will decrease drag.
Both the oil cooler and the transcooler will be fire wall mounted.It will be legal since the metal ductwork used will provide the required firewall.
          You had me there.. I had to go down into my shop and double check.On the earlier transmission like I'll be using there isn't a vacum modulator. It uses the HD truck valve body.. and spring tension alone determines shift points.. (to adjust shift point trans pan has to be dropped, valve body removed,  spring replaced with heavier spring and reverse the process.   Since the HD truck spring is as heavy a spring as is available custom wound spring must be used and there is no data that will tell me what tension is required to shift at 6500 RPM..  So it's strictly trial and error.. (no shimming the spring won't work either)
    On the Jag V12 the cooling system is not well thought out..The flaw is that it's as easy for water from the front cylinders to pump water back into the return rail, as for the back cylinders. The total volume of water flow from the heads is greater than the amount of water flowing.. thus the front cylinders tend to get cooling water several times while the real cylinders tend to have stagnant  (overheated) water. If the pick up point from the the end is at the rear water will flow far more evenly and the back cylinders won't stagnant..    To achieve that simply reverse the water outlets. Left front to right rear, Right front to left rear and visa versa..   Now just collect the water in a header tank and run it forward into the radiator.. 
  That will drop the water temps by more than 80 degrees C
No more blown head gaskets!  Couldn't do it on street engine,, a race engine once pollution stuff is removed and battery relocated etc.. has plenty of room on the fire wall for the mods mentioned..

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

Hoonatic Racing wrote:

let the tranny shift and heat up the ATF,
or
let it run to redline

well, it is an endurance race, choose the lesser of the two evils.
which can you replace faster: tranny or motor?

The motor is insanely stout.. nearly stock ones are raced at up to 8600 RPM  I'm afraid the tranny would be the weak link.. It's a GM Turbo 400 heavy duty.. (the one used in tow trucks, garbaage trucks and other heavy duty applications behind the 454.....  but it is marginal behind a 326 cu.in V12. That short strke  (2.75 inches) V12 puts out more torque than a 454 of the same era. (hard to believe isn't it?)
However to replace the tranny the motor does have to come out..

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

Trevor57 wrote:

Agreed. If you can't drive a manual trans, you can't drive.  Tell them to leave it in 4th, and forget about it.

3rd. earlier transmissions are 3 speeds.,

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

FJ40Jim wrote:

Put a shift improver kit in the valve body.  Leave the stock governor springs in it, so the shift point RPM doesn't change, but open up the holes in the separator plate for the 1-2 apply and 2-3 apply.  Then it will shift like a truck tranny: hard, with no slippage.

Jagaurs already have  the HD truck valve body . (Turbo Hydromatic 400 HD for use behind the 454 in heavy duty applications like tow truck, garbage truck etc..) Believe it or not that little 326 cu.in V12 makes more torque than the 454 of the era.

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

jagerbombracing wrote:

The two guys how can't drive stick might be faster to fix!!

Heh, heh,  You might have something there.. but they are friends and we won't stand a snowballs chance in hell of winning* so it really doesn't matter..
* too many pit stops for fuel.. most cars can run about 2 hours per tankful, the thirsty Jag will average about 40 minutes.. If I switch to ethanol like I want to that means in a 24 hour race I could be in the pits 100 times for fuel..

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

The motor is insanely stout.. nearly stock ones are raced at up to 8600 RPM  I'm afraid the tranny would be the weak link.. It's a GM Turbo 400 heavy duty.. (the one used in tow trucks, garbaage trucks and other heavy duty applications behind the 454.....  but it is marginal behind a 326 cu.in V12. That short strke  (2.75 inches) V12 puts out more torque than a 454 of the same era. (hard to believe isn't it?)

The TH400 is one of the stoutest transmissions out there. It also came behind 472 and 500cid Cadillacs, which produce an insane amount of torque. If anything I'd be worried about the internals spinning over 8000rpm, but they can handle the torque.

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

yes the TH400 is stout but it's designed for far lower RPM operation.. It takes the heavy duty truck valve body to endure the rpm the V12 operates at..
   I suspect if you tried to race a bone stock TH400 in a Caddy the High RPM's would quickly do it in.. The lifters on a 500 CuIn Caddy would start to pump up and prevent the engine from turning anywhere near the RPM the Jagaur is capable of..
That plus the torque converter is such a massively heavy beast, I wonder what it's RPM limit is as well. 
Guess I'm gonna see. 
ON a differant issue,, is the tranny in a 500 CuIn Eldorado the same turbo 400 just modified for  front wheel drive? 
I can see my duel engine car now.. a pair of V12's in an Eldorado..

24 pistons singing a song.. Now that would be  properly insane!   Hmm I even know where a rusty Eldorado is!!!

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

What will the fuel economy be with the V-12? Carbed or injection? And what is the tank capacity? Just wondering...

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

In our J30 I moved the condenser and blower assembly to the trunk.  I run the blower full bore, it removes a lot of heat and the trans is a survivor.

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

sergio wrote:

And what is the tank capacity? Just wondering...

I'm curious about this too.  If you run a 24 gal tank and have to stop every 40 minutes running pump gas, in a 14 hour race over two days you'd need to bring just over 9 55 gallon drums of fuel.

Greg
Team Skid Steer
Bullitt Bobcat 2.0
Fox Cougar Sedan

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

the 928 has an automatic...buts a Mercedes 722.3 unit...the nice part about those is you disconnect the bowden (throttle) cable and the kickdown switch...then it only shifts by the lever...and shift firmness-pressure is controlled by the vac modulator....works really well on the 928...just install a HUGE cooler and you'll be fine

We did NOT like running the automatic in auto mode...(with the bowden and kickdown connected)...it would spin past redline and kickdown in odd spots (like mid corner)...its better using it like a clutchless manual.....

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

sergio wrote:

What will the fuel economy be with the V-12? Carbed or injection? And what is the tank capacity? Just wondering...

It has a stock 24 gal tank..
The early V12 XJ-S had fuel injection which got between 8-11 MPG on the highway..  One tester reported 4 MPG on a tank full of mainly performance and highspeed driving..
Later HE's got better but did it with a cylinder head prone to overheating and blowing head gaskets when raced.. PLus the H.E. Is really limited in the amount of power it can make.
  Performace also suffered as rear end ratios went up.
I could have swapped in a set of carbs, got worse mileage and lost more than 30 HP.
To get 2 MPG I'll have to use ethanol and ghetto charge the car.
Classic delemia  shades of the Jaguar/BMW wars of the 80's Jag was much faster than the BMW's but the Jags needed extra pit stops.  So to win the TWR team was forced to thrash at maximum effort while the BMW's could perserve fuel..
  Sad to say, the BMW team won most of the races..

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

Lemonious Monk wrote:
sergio wrote:

And what is the tank capacity? Just wondering...

I'm curious about this too.  If you run a 24 gal tank and have to stop every 40 minutes running pump gas, in a 14 hour race over two days you'd need to bring just over 9 55 gallon drums of fuel.

Now do the math using ethanol (1/2 the mileage)20% more power
  At $3.00 a gallon that's504X3=  $1512.00
Ethanol is only$1.00 a gallon but twice as much needed so fuel costs would then be $1008. a savings of over $500.00
  Early Jag V12's got 8-11 MPG in testing with one testor reporting 4 MPG on a tank of mainly high speed and near racing conditions..
  (wanted to confrm 150 MPH top speed). 
Later HE's got 16-17 MPG but they tend to run extremely lean, overheat, and blow head gaskets under racing conditions..

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

If you go the ethanol route, you'll need about 19 drums of fuel.  How do you plan on transporting that much fuel to the track?  Any haz material over 1000 lbs. requires haz placards and a haz certified driver.

Greg
Team Skid Steer
Bullitt Bobcat 2.0
Fox Cougar Sedan

Re: automatic. siftless or not?

Lemonious Monk wrote:

If you go the ethanol route, you'll need about 19 drums of fuel.  How do you plan on transporting that much fuel to the track?  Any haz material over 1000 lbs. requires haz placards and a haz certified driver.

Are you sure? Not sure ethanol is hazardous..
I honestly don't know  so I guess I'll have to do some research..
  I do know it's not all that hard to get a license to haul Fuel . I did in my youth.. . Like anything else there are  rules, tricks, and ways..
  Frankly the idea of needing all that fuel strikes me as funny..
That's based on the insanely wild idea that the car will run the whole distance.. smilesmile
  34 year old car not known for reliability? Who are we trying to kid? 
  Actually I did forget to deduct the time spent in the pits getting fuel.  That's 42 stops   allowing 5 minutes per stop that's 3 1/2 hours right there so instead of 14 hours on the track It would be closer to 10 hours..  720 gallons.. (if my math is right)  Drops it down around 13 drums.. . Cost around $720 dollars!   Or $1080 for pump gas (unless they get more than $3.00 a gallon)
Oops but less time in the pits for refuleing.   So I need to add $324 more dollars because of added track time.  So  gas would be a little over $1400 and I'd need  467 gallons or so..  Gas would be around 3300#'s  so it wouldn't matter would it?  Both need (according  to you) a hazardous permit..
  Just for information when we went to the Bahama's  for speed weeks we hauled that much Race gas in the race car trailer.  Several big rigs hauled much more than that and I didn't notice any hazard warning tags on them..   WE had to list it on the manafest prior to loading on the ship. and once we arrived in the Bahama's customs checked everything over pretty carefully.. (Not much left on the return trip)  SO I'm sure nobody tried to pull a fast one..
OH hey!  I noticed that the factory Corvette team carries their own ethanol  (E85) for the petite LeMans series.  Looking at their Hauler/trailers I don't see any tags..  Now I'm sure those boys obey the law since GM is paying their bills..