51 Reply by Serj (edited by Serj 2011-02-09 12:00 PM)

  • Serj
  • Serj
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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

dculberson wrote:
Serj wrote:

John has come onto the forum and stated in no uncertain terms that he would Fail option (  2  ) [that is, of course, if we are to assume that when he said he would fail any non-certified cell, he means a non-FIA one].

No, he said he would fail any cell that didn't have a bladder.

EDIT: I was misreading John's post and have since removed contradictory, bone-headed statements in an effort to not confuse anyone further.

By John's definition, a Fuel Cell is a container with a metal exterior, and an internal impact-resistant bladder. Maybe that's the spirit of it, but again, I'm just playing devil's advocate on the whole affair for everyone's benefit. I'm sure there are still questions, and I'm sure John's less than thrilled at hving to answer questions that have been thown at him 100 times over the same things with regards to the fuel cell stuff.

He did say that a vessel that does not have an internal impact-resistant bladder is not a "fuel cell" as many of the companies out there so loosely like to call them, and because of this, he would fail it at tech. Totally in agreement with this, although it's a little disappointing to hear that the retailers are playing loose and fast with the terminology.

Most of these retailers have a "real fuel cell" option, and could be installed in a Lemons car in such a manner as to meet all the qualifications required for us to pass tech. I had originally thought that John had stated that in no uncertain terms he'd fail a non-certified cell, and stated examples such as Summit and Jegs. By this misinterperted declaration I assumed that no Summit, Jegs, etc "real fuel cell" will pass. I went further to pose questions based on this false pretense which kept this going in circles with dculberson. Sorry! I hope I've adequately removed the confusing posts I made.

  • From: Columbus, OH
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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Serj, read over the thread again.

"John has stated that in no uncertain terms he'd fail a non-certified cell"

He has NOT stated this, and in fact explicitly stated the exact opposite.  I'm at a loss as to where you think he said he would fail a non-certified cell.  He did say that he would fail a "cell" that had no bladder and was just a welded-up metal box that would split at the seams in an impact.  Before you repeat that and further confuse people reading this, please find and quote where he said that.

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  • Serj
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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

I am a bone head. I kept reading his statement with a "NOT" included as all this talk was so intwined with "this is not allowed, this is NOT allowed, this is definitely not allowed, and so on to the point where i couldn't see the "" is allowed "".

So, color me embarassed. I'll walk a lap around my yard in boxer shorts in 20F weather as penance.

  • From: Columbus, OH
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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

No problem!  I was confused, too, thinking I must have skipped over something.

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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

RobL wrote:

You had an OE tank that worked.  In the Citation, our OE tank was completely rusted and unrepairable.  We made this:

http://schumachertaxiservice.com/images/cell1.jpg

It's in the trunk with all lines and pumps inside the crash structure.  It passed early last year.  If that car were to run again, would we need to change the tank?  As you can see, making changes to put another tank in that area would be more involved.

Granted - we were lucky in that is how we bought the car.

IMVHO your tank/installation would fall within my 'option 4' - but, again IMVHO, it could pass Tech.  It's a provable professionally fabricated tank, mounted within a sturdy looking frame, isolated from the cabin and is free of any nearby puncture threat.  It just depends on the Inspector being happy with all that on the day and passing it.

I think Summit (from the examples in this thread) needs to be a little more precise on their language defining what is a Cell and what is a Tank.

56 Reply by Jer

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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

RobL wrote:
Serj wrote:

On that note, Rob would unfortunately be SOL on his current Fuel Cel installation on the Craptation. That, frankly, would be pretty crummy, and after their stripped out super-modified vic that was trailered for fuel issues, I have doubts they'd bother to put any more time into the Craptation to make it legal again.

We knew the Vic was going to be a one off car.  We knew we were going to cause a rule change.  As I said in another topic, the way the OEM fuel system filler neck was designed, it was not up to the task of racing. 

There was a desire to bring the craptation back at some point so there are budgetting issues that need to happen.

Based on the bladder issue, we would have to spend close to $1000 to replace the fuel cell with one that has a bladder, including all the fittings, re-working lines and re-worked box.  That probably isn't going to happen so I might part out the Craptation and wash my hands of it.  Bummer, but I'm not dropping another G note into the car for fuel.

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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Evil Genius wrote:
Judge Phil wrote:

At the first Lemons race, the drivers wore T-shirts and used rubber gloves to fix fuel-filler leaks.

That there's a cell... see the bladder!

And men were men.

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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Jer-

Jer wrote:

When did these rules change?  Our tank is the first summit one I believe and was fine last year, properly caged and separated by steel from the passenger compartment.  Now we have to buy a new cell?  I must have missed that rules change...

Evil Genius wrote:

We do allow non certified cells: Summit, Jegs, Jazz, etc...   there are a lot of them running.  They, however, have to be cells with recognizable manufacturer names/stamps on them.  they have to be separated from the driver by a sealed metal bulkhead...    There are hundreds of them running in Lemons, most pass easily.

if it's the summit one, it sounds like you are OK.  it's not like you had me fab up a metal box as my intro to welding.

Evil Genius wrote:

We don't have a 900 page rule book that breaks everything down, nobody wants that.  Please don't make us write one...   

this.  for the love of God, people, THIS.

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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Jer wrote:

Based on the bladder issue, we would have to spend close to $1000 to replace the fuel cell with one that has a bladder, including all the fittings, re-working lines and re-worked box.  That probably isn't going to happen so I might part out the Craptation and wash my hands of it.  Bummer, but I'm not dropping another G note into the car for fuel.

Shoot.  I just looked at your picture, thinking maybe a bladder could be added (they are sold!) but that's a completely welded up box.  That sucks.  If it helps, you could get by with the Summit cell that is around $280.  If you don't have a welder then I guess reworking the mounting would be expensive, but it doesn't need to be as elaborate as what you have - as far as I know.

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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

Anyone got pictures of a cell in a hatch or wagon?  Wondering how the metal bulkhead/firewall was constructed.  Fortunately we have a reliable stock fuel tank system, but I'm still curious what is the best way to add a cell to a car that doesn't have a trunk seperate from the driver.

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  • Registered: 2009-10-07
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Re: Some clarification on fuel cell rules

I guess the best advice I can give is just get the FIA cell or use the stock tank.  If I had gotten one in the begging we would not have had to build the aluminum enclosure around our fuel cell, or had to make a make shift fire wall out of a stop sign at our first race.  The time, energy, and materials to build an actual box around the non FIA ATL fuel cell I have would have been better spent on something else on the car.  Although I like the stop sign we installed, (http://www.murileemartin.com/LTXF09/LTXF09-UG-0065.html) if I had to do it over I would just spend the extra $$ on the FIA Cell and not have to go through the hassel with the tech judges at every race four and counting. (Well three Jay teched the car at the last race)

Good topic though because most people do not undertand the difference. Nor do they understand that the FIA stamp is a certification some sanctioning bodies do not require thus why some manufacturers do not FIA cert there products.

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