Topic: Team Babel: the MR2 Mk1 project begins

The car (dubbed "Hot Carl") was listed on CL for $900 with a warped head. The owner also races and when I told him my super secret Lemons theme, he got interested. But not $500 interested. I went looking for other cars, and Hot Carl sat unsold for weeks dropping to $700, and eventually Jared said I could have it for $500. Which turned out to be $495.45 because there was $4.55 in coin under the carpets.

I could have tried harder selling off parts, but I met a nice guy on CL and gave him a deal, $150 for the trunk lid, sunshade, door and HL motors, plus various trim pieces. He's doing me a solid and giving me a spare FX16 head in return. I was feeling good about my good fortune until I came upon this thread and wished I'd done a little more research on the dismal finishing record of MR2s.
http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?id=1949

The oil starvation problem is mostly on right turns, of which Thunderhill has a lot. So it looks like a deeper sump, baffle, longer oil pickup, and as many cooling modifications as I can manage will be essential to finishing the race. I'm also considering a rev limiter, maybe 4500 RPMs for the first day? Any other ideas on keeping this engine running for 14.5 hours would be appreciated.

Mario Korf
Redwood City, CA

Toyota M-Ark-2, then Lamborrari, now Occam's Racer.

Re: Team Babel: the MR2 Mk1 project begins

The first key is keeping the motor from overheating (again). If you're running the stock radiator, get it to a shop and get it cleaned out of the 25+ years of crap that's accumulated in it, all the stop leak and other gunk is working against your radiator efficiency. Flush out the entire coolant system and make sure that your water pump is working properly. Find a way to get a real oil cooler on there -- in fact, shoot me an email, I probably have a spare sitting around that you can have for very very cheap. When you're rebuilding the engine, build a spacer for your oil pickup tube so that the screen is about 1/8" off the bottom of the pan and that will help with the starvation issues. When you do the rebuild, use a lot of Redline assembly lube on all the bearings and cam caps, I'm certain that helps. We got 85 race hours on the engine we rebuilt after the one we blew in the post you quote and I did all of that on that rebuilt engine.

Also, vent your radiator up through the hood. It will get much, much, much better flow through the radiator rather than the flow running right into that "firewall" right behind the radiator. Vent that firewall and then send the flow up through the hood. It will also help to reduce front end float at high speed.

Then keep the revs in a reasonable range, by which I mean think about putting a shift light on the motor set for 6500-7000 revs. You can't shift that engine at 4500, it doesn't start developing any power until north of 3000 rpm. You've got to take it to at least 6500 if you don't want to be a total slug, and it doesn't redline until 8000 so you've got plenty of room above that 6500 shift point.

Get a good alignment on the car. It is very sensitive to bad toe-out. I've had success with the toe at dead zero in back and at about 1/16" in (per side) on the front, but mine is pretty lowered at this point. You might want to go with something closer to the factory settings if you're running the stock suspension. Max out the camber on all 4 corners (using the eccentrics) and then set the front toe to zero and the rear in 5mm (those are the factory settings). But the alignment is critical on this car, with it's short wheelbase it will swap ends without a lot of warning if you make the (common) mistake of jumping onto and then off the accelerator and onto the brakes. It doesn't like rapid front-rear weight transfer smile

Feel free to shoot me an email with any more specific questions. Cheers!

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Team Babel: the MR2 Mk1 project begins

Thanks for the all that useful info, I would very much be interested in an oil cooler, I'll email you my address. Where in the system do you plug it in? What kind of oil are you running?

How thick of a spacer do you put in the sump? What do I do, take a gasket and use that as a template and make a spacer out of aluminum, and then put a gasket on either side? I'll probably make this using a bandsaw, bad idea?

I was thinking of doing an Elise-style hood with a rearward facing vent. Either swiss cheese the heck out of the front of the frunk or cut out large slots in it. I'm going to remove the AC, that's blocking the rad as well.

I'm going to relocate the intake to the driver's side and get rid of several feet of intake snorkel. This is part of my theme mods, so even if this is a bad idea performance wise, you can't talk me out of it. This means I can dedicate the right side intake to engine cooling. I noticed there's an engine fan there, is it effective? Should I make a switch to run it all the time or would a scoop on top of the roof be better?

Do the brakes overheat? I was going to run ducts through the headlight and cool at least the front rotors.

I'll definitely look into the alignment, thanks for the numbers.

Toyota M-Ark-2, then Lamborrari, now Occam's Racer.

Re: Team Babel: the MR2 Mk1 project begins

There's a lot of good info at MR2OC.com and you can probably find a downloadable copy of the factory service manual a/k/a the BGB (Big Green Book) there too.

Definitely remove the A/C. Just extra weight for no good. Yeah, an Elise-style hood would work fine. If you don't feel like slotting or hole-drilling the firewall behind the radiator, you can cut the entire thing out. Just cut above the line formed above the spot welds at the bottom  and on the sides and below the obvious lateral crease at the top. We've run probably 6 races without it at all and haven't noticed any front end flex/twist as a result. I did weld in a piece of roll cage tubing across the frame members in the frunk, just to make sure.

For the oil cooler, what I did was put a sandwich plate on the oil filter and ran the oil cooler out that way. You can put the engine cooling fan on the oil cooler, as it does jack squat for cooling the engine while the car is in motion. It's only there to help keep down engine bay temps in stop and go traffic. In terms of oil, it depends on how worn your engine is and how well you get it cooling. Mostly I pick up whatever is the cheapest full-synthetic oil I can find, but then I change it after every race session. I got a bunch of Royal Purple 15w40 on sale for $4.99/quart last summer and have been using the crap out of that, and it seems fine. Redline will tell you to use 30w, a bunch of forum guys swear by 50w. I think 30w or 40w full synthetic is fine, but you might want thicker if you're going to be racing in hotter temps.

You can find a pretty common air intake mod (and AFM mod too) on MR2OC. I think you'll see that nobody uses the stock around-the-car air intakes. You can put the oil cooler in the spot on the right where the engine cooling fan resides/resided if you like. You can leave the engine fan on its stock relay and controller and let it decide if/when to turn on, or slave it to a dedicated relay, which is what I did.

For the sump spacer, I did mine on a bandsaw too, and basically exactly as you described it. Then I shimmed the legs that hold the oil sump screen with extra washers.

The front brakes will overheat if they don't get air. It can be hard to get them ducted due to the frunk, but if you just cut openings in the air dam to let some fresh air in, that seems to be sufficient at most tracks. The only one where we've had any real brake problems is at ECR, but EVERYBODY has brake problems at ECR, so it's not and MR2 issue (for once), that's a track issue. The rear brakes are only marginally functional on most MR2's in order to reduce snap oversteer. You can remove the brake prop valve inside the stock prop valve body that's located on the driver's front strut tower, but to be honest, I haven't found that it really makes much of a difference either way.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

5 (edited by bossnova 2012-03-04 10:58 PM)

Re: Team Babel: the MR2 Mk1 project begins

Great Info from Mulry  We race a mk1 and his info really helped. A few more bits we used.We used an underdrive pulley on WP as it is said it can cavitate near 7k .If you suspect overheating. Be sure to surface head and probably block too we have 2 motors and blocks took .007 to clean up. We are running a external oil cooler in trunk a big one!We also put a 090" restrictor in oil feed to head and a home made wing on oil pan engine takes just under 6 qts now.1st 2races we overheated due to loss of water 3rd race I pressurized engine on floor and found seeping hoses,water Outlet gaskets and a pinhole in 25 year old pipe from tstat to waterpump! It only leaked above5psi.Then after installing engine we tested again no leaks and last race it was perfect ran at 180 both days.
We are in Marin email w ? I would be happy to help out.
Good luck!!!


Ps not cheaters I own a machine shop so machine work is off budget

Duck Die nasty Button turibble 13  60 somthinish  Snowballs Chance in Hell 85 MR2
The Skankaway Anti-Toe-Fungal 500  16th  WOOHOO
Arsesweat apaoooza 2011  90th Arsesweat 2012 36th
Sears pointless 2011 47th 2012 118th

6 (edited by Mulry 2012-03-05 07:48 AM)

Re: Team Babel: the MR2 Mk1 project begins

He makes some great points there. You will definitely need to get the head checked for flatness since you know that it's already blown a head gasket, you're pretty much guaranteed that the head is warped. Underdrive pulleys are a great idea too but hunt around for them to keep it under budget (the classified/used parts forums at MR2OC.com and at club4ag.com are both good sources). You can use any engine parts from the AE86 on your engine, so make sure to use that as a search term if you're hunting on eBay, as there are a lot more AE86 fans out there than MR2, and especially so on the West Coast where the drifting culture is stronger.

I like that oil restrictor idea. You know what, I have a kicked-out oil pan for the 4AG motor that I can get to you too if you want it. I think it increases capacity to 6 or 7 qts and is baffled and all of that. It could use a dunk in the acid-dip because it sat outside and got some surface rust on it, but once we installed that larger sump, we had no problems with oil pressure whatsoever.

Once you get it all put back together, make certain that you have bled the coolant circuit completely. You'll want to read the procedure in the BGB pretty closely. It's not difficult, certainly not brain surgery, but you will surely blow another head gasket if you don't get all the air out of the coolant loop. You really want to get the engine running as cool as possible (within reason) because when it gets really hot and at high RPM, you will get pockets of steam forming in the head (especially near the #4 cylinder), and then another BHG is a guarantee. If you can find a used aluminum racing radiator for any other car, it's worth modifying the radiator mounts and front end, but that's more advanced than MR2 101. smile

If you can use bossnova's airlift (or whatever he's using to pressurize the cooling system on the floor), I'd definitely recommend it. Working on the MR2 at the track, especially the cooling hoses, is really difficult due to the packaging of the engine in that narrow space. Much easier to do back at home/the shop. Cheers and keep the questions coming.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: Team Babel: the MR2 Mk1 project begins

Thanks guys, you've given me a lot of work to do!

I'll continue to post Q&A here to help others, but we now have a blog as well:
www.team-babel.com

Toyota M-Ark-2, then Lamborrari, now Occam's Racer.

Re: Team Babel: the MR2 Mk1 project begins

We pressurize engine assembly on floor with our head pressure testing fixture but if you have an air regulator w/gauge its pretty easy just plug hoses and use air regulator to apply no more than twenty psi 15 should be enough then spray suspect areas w/ dishwasing detergent/water mix and look for bubbles. We also fabbed up a surge  tank which makes getting air out a snap and gives us 3 qts more water capacity . It has small lines running from t/stat housing and top of metal pipe where old rad cap used to be then the return goes into bypass return to water pump. we fill it and run car the only bleeding we do is at top of radiator. I will figure out posting pics and post somtime.

Duck Die nasty Button turibble 13  60 somthinish  Snowballs Chance in Hell 85 MR2
The Skankaway Anti-Toe-Fungal 500  16th  WOOHOO
Arsesweat apaoooza 2011  90th Arsesweat 2012 36th
Sears pointless 2011 47th 2012 118th

Re: Team Babel: the MR2 Mk1 project begins

I would like to take some laps in a Mr. Two someday.

I have a soft spot for them since I had one for a daily 20 years ago or so.   

They look like a lot of fun on the track but after watching them in Lemons I noticed - once they oversteer just a bit and the ass end comes around, they spin like a stripper on a pole!

Dangerous Banned Technology (NOLA 09), Judges Choice (Houston 2010), Organizers Choice (NOLA 2010), Most Heroic Fix (Dallas 2010), $100 from Jay's Pocket (Dallas 2010), Dangerous Homemade Technology (NOLA 2010), Ununhexium Legends of Lemons Status,  Index of Effluency (Dallas 2011), Most Heroic Fix - (Houston 2011), Index of Effluency (TWS - 2012), Organizers Choice (Dallas 2013)

Re: Team Babel: the MR2 Mk1 project begins

My opinion is a more conservative approach for prepping an AW11 for Lemons racing. Most of the top finishes for the AW11 that I know of have been near factory stock cars. Lil Smokey And The Bandits, Motoring J-style both have several finishes in the top 3-10 and they are pretty much bone-factory-stock.

What year is yours? The bigger 87+ brake upgrade is nice, though we did great with stock 86 brakes in the Snowspeeder for several races. Good pads are more critical, IMO.

Cooling system is certainly the most common weakness, but the stock system works fine if it is in good condition. Leaks leading to cavitation are always the biggest problem, but the water pump does seem to have difficulty keeping up with all that plumbing. Pressure test, and take a tester to the track. Stick figure and V-RAM cars have both been fitted with surge tanks in the past, which would delay but not avoid over-heating. External electric water pumps have decisively cured our cooling problems.

Improving cooling air flow can't hurt, but it's not why MR2s overheat from what I've observed. Scoops are fun to make!

It's interesting to observe that the Corolla portion of the MRolla, running stock cooling (stock everything) has never overheated. Same engine and water pump, just less plumbing.

And welcome to the 24HL Lemons club. I think the aw11 is more fun than anything else on the track.

I wouldn't assume the stock oil cooling system is less effective than an air oil cooler without seeing temperature data. Water is a great conductor. That said all three MR2's I race have an air oil cooler tucked into the engine bay vent.

I also see enough 4AGE cars race effectively with stock oil pans and plumbing that I wouldn't mess with it. Nearly all cases I know of "oil problems" have be theoretical explanations on engines that were in questionable condition and/or had questionable mods.

Re: Team Babel: the MR2 Mk1 project begins

Cage building for an AW11 is a trick. Clearance is very tight. Skin your driver door and bow the door bars into it. You can save time/trouble if you get your rear braces welded while you happen to have the engine out of the bay.

Evil John recently did an AW11 cage and documented it here: http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewt … p?id=12194

If I were building again I'd opt for chopping the roof then reattaching after the cage was in with sufficient head clearance.

Re: Team Babel: the MR2 Mk1 project begins

random_tox wrote:

Cage building for an AW11 is a trick. Clearance is very tight.

If I were building again I'd opt for chopping the roof then reattaching after the cage was in with sufficient head clearance.

What he said

Duck Die nasty Button turibble 13  60 somthinish  Snowballs Chance in Hell 85 MR2
The Skankaway Anti-Toe-Fungal 500  16th  WOOHOO
Arsesweat apaoooza 2011  90th Arsesweat 2012 36th
Sears pointless 2011 47th 2012 118th

Re: Team Babel: the MR2 Mk1 project begins

It's an 87, big brakes I guess. I'm thinking to run higher friction brake pads in front to get more front-end bias, keep the back from coming around. Does that work?

I'm hoping to get Jay to make my cage for me, that way I'll be certain to pass tech. I'll skin the driver door for sure. Is the passenger door even used? Maybe weld it shut?

Toyota M-Ark-2, then Lamborrari, now Occam's Racer.

Re: Team Babel: the MR2 Mk1 project begins

We gutted the oe proportioning valve and added an adjustable valve in the line to front brakes.
Don't weld pass side door it makes it easy to help belt in driver and unless your tiny or an acrobat
You WA t to be able to get in that way to work on inside stuff.

Duck Die nasty Button turibble 13  60 somthinish  Snowballs Chance in Hell 85 MR2
The Skankaway Anti-Toe-Fungal 500  16th  WOOHOO
Arsesweat apaoooza 2011  90th Arsesweat 2012 36th
Sears pointless 2011 47th 2012 118th

Re: Team Babel: the MR2 Mk1 project begins

That's a good idea about having Evil Genius do the cage. Price will be about the same as anybody else but you'll never worry about failing tech for a cage problem, and IMHO, that's the most difficult to fix at the last minute at the track.

Larry may be right about the conservative approach being superior, I don't know. His experience is different than mine. My experience has been that every MR2 that went the conservative route also went boom pretty soon thereafter. Only once I went "radical" (by comparison to being "conservative") by tearing the engine all the way down and rebuilding it myself, fixing the cooling system, adding capacity and cooling capacity to the oil system, etc., was I able to get a reliable engine. We put 85 race hours on the last engine and it would have gone longer if not for a worm clamp that slipped, resulting in total water loss. I think that's what led to a very small BHG whereby we sipped the replaced water out in the next event, and even then it would have been survivable if the driver at the time hadn't ignored the flashing warning light and the audible beeping telling him that the car was overheating.

My perspective is that we know that there are problems with the MR2's cooling system and so I throw a ton of different efforts to fix that problem. Larger radiator instead of an electric water pump, etc. Maybe they are not each effective enough to solve the problem, but together they have been, and that's during some of the hottest races that Lemons has ever seen in the Texas summers.

That said, Larry, most of these engines are in questionable condition -- that's why they're Lemons eligible! smile

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.